Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Discussion On All Aspects Of The Film.

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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:46 am

Fargo Fenwyck wrote:Rich I tried the alternate ending also with the film and it don't fit anywhere so there must be another deleted scene.


Yep. I'm sure the officers' dialogue scene would have filled the time. It all makes sense with that scene in the film, but it is still an anti-climax. Since they don't seem to have filmed the scene, the decision must have been made during filming or slightly before, if Tiomkin had already written the sheet music for it.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:33 pm

Yeah the music almost sounds as if a victory piece for the Mexicans which would be correct. Just wouldn't fit with the mood set up for Joan walking out.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:47 am

Fargo Fenwyck wrote:Yeah the music almost sounds as if a victory piece for the Mexicans which would be correct. Just wouldn't fit with the mood set up for Joan walking out.


I could see the editor making that work very well. Changing moods is what filmmaking is all about. Have the awesome battle which gets us all up-tight, then have the Mexican triumph which has the adverse effect of making us feel "all is lost," then have the mood go somber as the fatherless child/husbandless mother come out of the rubble and have it build to a triumph as they are led off into the sunset by Smitty. It works as a series of sequences. It just doesn't work as a conclusion for the mood of the film.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Well when you put it that way.......
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:10 am

Fargo Fenwyck wrote:Well when you put it that way.......


Verbose, ain't I?
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:08 am

Will this CD set be the background music for the Alamo gala, I wonder?

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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby MUSTANG on Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:04 pm

Yes.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:25 pm

After ordering the epic soundtrack from SAE I want you guys to know that I have been a steady customer since. You guys have created a monster!!!!! I won't tell you how much I have spent since this great place was introduced to me through my visits here. All I know is that there are some great soundtracks that I never knew were avaliable. "Northwest Passage" is terrific. Thanks guys.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:58 pm

Fargo Fenwyck wrote:After ordering the epic soundtrack from SAE I want you guys to know that I have been a steady customer since. You guys have created a monster!!!!! I won't tell you how much I have spent since this great place was introduced to me through my visits here. All I know is that there are some great soundtracks that I never knew were avaliable. "Northwest Passage" is terrific. Thanks guys.


And also a LOT of interest in reproducing lost and/or unrequited scores by Nic Raine and others. I just got The Comancheros complete score, which is so well re-mastered that -- before I read the liner notes -- I thought it was a modern recording of the City of Progue Orchestra performing the score. It's the ORIGINAL music track IN STEREO (which the movie soundtrack never was). I remember buying the LP of The Sons of Katie Elder back in the sixties, wishing it were The Comancheros which was never published.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:02 am

Here is a link to Jeffrey Dane's article about the new 3 disc box set of Dimitri Tiomkin's music from THE ALAMO: http://www.in70mm.com/news/2010/dimitri/index.htm
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:00 pm

That's quite an article and speaks volumes of what film music and the composer's of the films contributed. Soundtracks are an art form all by themselves. For many of us those LP's were our way of revisiting our favorite films. Sadly some of the film music has not been recorded but slowly it's being rectified. Good article.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:51 pm

While most of you were enjoying the festivities in TEXAS, I celebrated my 62nd birthday and as one of my gifts recieved a four disc Tiomkin CD with the name "Alamo". It has excerts from that film however it is a tribute to Tiomkin's movie scores and there some real surprises. "Tarzan and the Mermaids", "Cyrano de Bergerac" and other scores that have never been on disc before or LP. They are gems.
As a film composer Tiomkin was one of my two favorites. The disc is: The Alamo Dimitri Tiomkin The Essential Film Music Collection and I got it from Screen Archives Entertainment.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Seguin on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:13 am

Nefarious wrote:Here is a link to Jeffrey Dane's article about the new 3 disc box set of Dimitri Tiomkin's music from THE ALAMO: http://www.in70mm.com/news/2010/dimitri/index.htm


Interesting article! I like the Goethe quote he used.
Nice to see Jeffrey Dane used something you said, Ned:

"At 6:37pm on October 18, 2008, a member of The Alamo Society, Ned Huthmacher, posted on Maurice Jones' website, JohnWayne-TheAlamo.com, a very telling comment: "Tiomkin's score is at least half the reason we continue remembering Wayne's Alamo." In so doing, he virtually summarized the Tiomkin matter by cunningly pointing up -- in those thirteen words -- the significance of music in film."

- It certainly is true Tiomkin´s music is one of the major reasons why we remember the movie.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Colonel Davy on Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:33 pm

For those who can't get enough of the Tiomkin/Wayne duo, Intrada has released a limited edition(2,000) cd of the soundtrack to The War Wagon. It is the complete, original tracks in stereo. This is no rerecording, Ed Ames sings the title track and the sonics are fantastic throughout. There's plenty of photos and ad art including the main poster art by Reynold Brown(another frequent contributor
to John Wayne's films.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:33 pm

Colonel Davy wrote:For those who can't get enough of the Tiomkin/Wayne duo, Intrada has released a limited edition(2,000) cd of the soundtrack to The War Wagon. It is the complete, original tracks in stereo. This is no rerecording, Ed Ames sings the title track and the sonics are fantastic throughout. There's plenty of photos and ad art including the main poster art by Reynold Brown(another frequent contributor
to John Wayne's films.


Thanks Colonel Davy, I just listened to some of the cues and ordered it. I am one who can never have too much original Dimi. :D
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:35 am

I just "won" a scarce reel to reel tape version of the soundtrack to THE ALAMO on eBay. Pretty cool!
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Davy on Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:05 am

Lets see now ... where did I put that reel to reel player! :lol:

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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Seguin on Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:17 am

I just "won" a scarce reel to reel tape version of the soundtrack to THE ALAMO on eBay. Pretty cool!


Yes, that is pretty cool! Congrats. I´ve never seen one before. Was that the tape they used in cinemas?
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:02 am

Seguin wrote:
I just "won" a scarce reel to reel tape version of the soundtrack to THE ALAMO on eBay. Pretty cool!


Yes, that is pretty cool! Congrats. I´ve never seen one before. Was that the tape they used in cinemas?

Nope, it is just for home use, like an 8 track tape, LP record, or a cassette tape. I actually still have my reel to reel tape
recorder and about 30 tapes from the early 70's. Unlike cassette tapes, or even CDs, reel to reel tapes have a long shelf life.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Seguin on Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:09 am

I see! I´ve also heard reel-to-reel tapes are more durable than cassette tapes and CD´s. They say CD´s starts to lose
information after about 10 years. At some point they´ll have lost so much information that you can hear it when you
play them - or so they say. Thank God, you still have your reel-to-reel recorder. I guess you´ll be listening to Tiomkin
the next couple of days. ;)
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby henrywarnell on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:01 pm

That's reel to real cool Ned, never seen it in that format before, I still have my old vinyl LP version that I bought after the
film was released over here.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:28 pm

henrywarnell wrote:That's reel to real cool Ned, never seen it in that format before, I still have my old vinyl LP version that I bought after the
film was released over here.

What label was it released on in the UK, John? It was on Columbia here.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby henrywarnell on Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:36 pm

Its a Philips label Ned!
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby henrywarnell on Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:46 pm

Ther ya go Ned, not a good picture!
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Davy on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:58 pm

henrywarnell wrote:Ther ya go Ned, not a good picture!


Why shucks John ...thats what everybody says when they see any picture of my face! :o :oops: :twisted:

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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby HauptmannBrittles on Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:39 pm

AlamoMo wrote:The Music Sountrack.

Image


Image 50th Anniversary 1960-2010 :arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdqPa3q8Xkc Image 50th Anniversary 1960-2010 :arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJfDD9T1ltg&feature=related
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby HauptmannBrittles on Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:23 pm

Nefarious wrote:Image
Gatefold booklet painting. Seems the artist has made the Alamo compound about 1/2 its actual length. It looks smaller
than the set at Dripping Springs here.


Image MUSIC TAKEN FROM FROM THE NEW CD :arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XkC3kQwdNw
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:57 am

Regarding the comments a page or two back about the difference in longevity between reel-to-reel and cassette tapes, I remembered that my best friend -- and major audio technician with his own recording studio -- Rocco Fortunato has major knowledge of these technologies from our past. I asked him if he would be willing to fill us in a little bit. Well....... you will quickly see that we are indeed like brothers. Here is his "little bit." All very informative:



I do note that someone mentioned Reel tape being more robust than cassettes - yes and no. Cassettes are made from the same kind of magnetic tape stock as 1/4" Reels - albeit cut much narrower (1/8"). So, yes, cassettes are mechanically less durable. They stretch more easily in cheap players and can tangle in slot-fed players pretty easily. You wouldn't sound good either if you were stretched and wrinkled... wait a minute... that's what's happening to ME in my old age.. oh, never mind...

But the tape itself can last as long as 1/4" reels if handled properly. And believe me, 1/4" tape can be stretched and wrinkled too. And it can be scratched by worn tape heads. And: If a tape is played on an old machine (actually any machine) that has not been maintained carefully, the machine will degrade the magnetic signal on the tape, progressively eroding especially the high frequencies permanently with each play.

It's a kind of mutually destructive ballet between the tape and the player. The tape has a coating of iron oxide, each particle of which is a tiny permanent magnet. A build up of magnetic flux is transferred to the tape head block by the iron oxide on the tape itself as it passes by the head. Think of magnetizing a screwdriver by passing a permanent magnet over it. The tape is magnetizing the tape head!

When the tape head's job is recording, it generates variances in magnetic flux to force the iron oxide particles on the tape surface into magnetic patterns that represent the sound. The recording head is a controlled magnet. The playback head is not supposed to be a magnet at all. It's job is to read all the little magnets on the tape. If the head has any magnetic properties, it changes (re-records, if you will) the sound of the tape!

In the days when I professionally recorded to tape, it was essential that the tape machine heads be fastidiously cleaned and demagnetized constantly: every day and before every critical recording or transcription. How long has it been since the tape heads in a typical car cassette player were cleaned? You can't even get a demagnetizer in to the heads without dismantling the dashboard. Car players are notorious for destroying cassette tapes. Now you know that not only can they chew them up and spit them out as spaghetti, they insidiously magnetically degrade your good tapes with every play. It's probably why cassette tapes have a poorer reputation than 1/4" reels for longevity.

Of course, tape materials and qualities also vary. Recording tape is a long strip of material with iron oxide glued onto it. The formulation of the iron oxide compound is critical and varies by brand and expense level. So does the quality of the strip material and the glue. I have tapes from the 50's that still play ok and tapes from the 70's that are crap. And vice-versa! Some old tapes have glue that has dried up to the point where the oxide falls off in clumps as it passes by the head. Or worse, some glues turn gummy and clog up the head with goo.

The backing strip longevity varies by both original material choice and quality of manufacture. Some materials , like acetate - used in most very early tapes - dries out with age and breaks very easily. I once had to do a project of transcribing a series of old tapes that had PAPER backing. I was cleaning heads and rollers every 15 minutes and became more experienced with a splicing block than I had ever imagined! More durable materials, like mylar - invented later - suffer from stretch problems that cause the oxide to flex off the tape - or simply change the s-ooo-uuu-nnn-d.

Commercial tapes, like the Alamo prize mentioned, suffered from the need for the manufacturer to squeeze longer program material onto each reel. Standard tape would only get you 20 to 30 minutes of play on a reel. To get a standard reel to play for an hour and maintain fidelity, the solution was to use thinner tape! Stretch city! And, for a machine with a dirty pinch wheel, spaghetti waiting for sauce.

Bottom line: tape is a durable medium with longevity only if it's materials are of lasting quality, it has been stored where air and moisture haven't messed with the glue or the backing, and, most importantly, it is not played on a machine that wants to eat it! (Not just mechanically -- magnetically as well.)

A word about CDs and longevity. Except for breakage, stretching, warping, scratching or oxide falling off the backing, when tapes and vinyl wear, the sound degrades gradually. Typically, it loses it's higher frequencies and overall volume deteriorating further and further into the backgound noise that was always there but never noticed as much.

With CDs, it's pretty much a yay or nay situation. If an encoded digital 0 or 1 wears on a CD, the laser can't read it at all! Nothing. If the wear isn't too bad yet,

Now the kicker. There are two fundamentally different kinds of CDs: computer recordable CDs and physically manufactured CDs made from a glass master.

The CD somebody copied for you or one you made on your computer is dye based system. A thin layer of light sensitive dye is sandwiched between two layers of plastic (or sometimes between plastic and lacquer or other materials). Also in the sandwich is a reflective layer under the dye. The recording laser 'burns' holes in the dye for digital 1's and leaves the dye opaque for digital 0's. 'Burn' means that the intense light from the laser causes the dye to turn transparent. When the playback laser reads the disc, if there's a hole, the laser light bounces back off the reflective layer underneath. Digital 1. If there is no hole, no light reflects back. Digital 0. The problem: the dye is light sensitive and also degrades chemically over time. Put that disc on the dashboard of your car and, over time, sunlight will start turning all the dye transparent. Keep that disc too long, even protected from light, and the dye turns transparent on its own. Hey, and how bout that laser light in the CD reader! Not much damage per play, but over time... Bummer. Bad disc!

HOWEVER, physically manufactured, glass master discs are completely different. The 1's and 0's are represented by stamping physical indentations in a reflective foil. No dye. When a laser hits a flat surface, it is read as the light bounces back. When the laser hits a 'dent', the light bounces away at an angle and is not read. The key here is: nothing to deteriorate. Metal foil lasts a very long time, especially when protected from the elements by a rigid, sealed plastic sandwich. Given quality manufacture, glass master discs are estimated to last a hundred years or more... but of course we don't have proof yet...

Most commercial discs by recording labels are physically manufactured. It is fair to say, since the playback process does zero harm - no wear at all - most of these will last far longer than a typical LP or tape; albeit the disc is not physically damaged by scratches or dirt. But those are user-caused wear that can be avoided. Unlike the tape player or turntable that is constantly conspiring to wear down its victim with a thousand tiny cuts, the CD player, even a cheap one, doesn't even touch the CD!

(from Rocco Fortunato, Cavalry Productions, Brackettville, Texas)
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby MUSTANG on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:12 pm

Rich, you must be related!!!!! Rocco, great information.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:24 pm

Indeed! Thanks for taking the time to sort through and explain all that.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby MUSTANG on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:06 pm

Brings back memories. I used to have a killer stereo system, TEAC, Akai, Harmon, amp, pre-amp, receiver, turntable,
reel to reel, and great speakers. Lost it all in a divorce. Damn woman!
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby zapadore on Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:25 pm

..........welcome to the club John..proud to have ya amongest us!
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Davy on Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:34 pm

Image

Members of the WHCA? Wimmins Haters Club of America? :( :lol:
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby zapadore on Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:35 pm

.ah no,.........men who have screwed by the courts courtesy of ex's.........
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:50 pm

Here's the box art for the reel to reel tape of THE ALAMO soundtrack. It arrived today. Box smelled
kind of musty. Must've been kept out in the garage, or something. As a keepsake it's nice, but I can't
see me trying to play the tape itself only to watch it disintegrate.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Davy on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:55 pm

zapadore wrote:.ah no,.........men who have screwed by the courts courtesy of ex's.........


Frankly if you lived at all :o ... your probably are in that category! :lol:

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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby Seguin on Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:04 pm

Nefarious wrote:Indeed! Thanks for taking the time to sort through and explain all that.


Yes, great info on tape and CD durability! Thanks, Rich.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:49 am

Rocco lives up to his knowledge in the recording studio too. He did the music for both my western Travis Smith and my
docudrama Alamo: The New Defenders -- all on midi-gear except for some piano and the Deguello in the latter -- and
some wonderful mandolin by a friend in the former.
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby HauptmannBrittles on Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:14 pm

TexianAtHeartII wrote:I was just doing a little research on one of my favorite groups from the 60's, The Fortunes. they were an English group who had a big hit back then called, You've Got Your Troubles. Well, on an website called Allmusic.com, I looked them up to read their history and check out the albums they have available. There's one called The Fortunes- The Singles. And lo and behold, on there is a version of The Ballad Of The Alamo from the 1960 movie. it even lets you hear a sample of the song through your media player and sure enough, it's the same one done by Marty Robbins and on the soundtrack. All I could hear is the last few verses of the song but, it sounded like they did a good job with it. Just thought I'd add this little tidbit to the conversation. I sure didn't expect an English rock group from the 60's with this song in their repertoire.


Image Ballad of The Alamo - The Fortunes :arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhsIF5Q4GCE
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Re: Dimitri Tiomkin's Film Score.

Postby HauptmannBrittles on Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:38 pm

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