Cut & Missing Scenes.

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Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby AlamoMo on Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:09 pm

Discuss The Cut & Missing Scenes.

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Lisa Dickinson's birthday party.
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Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby AlamoMo on Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:10 pm

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Tale end of Houston's infantry column which you can just barely
see in the film as Houston is riding into San Antonio.
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Re: Cut Scenes.

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:53 am

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Lisa Dickinson's birthday party scene from THE ALAMO, seen only in the Director's Cut.
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Re: Cut Scenes.

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:18 pm

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Crockett's Tennesseans originally arrived in town in their fooferaw.
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Re: Cut Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:01 pm

The birthday party scene was really an actual party given for John Henry Daniels (Happy Sam) who had his birthday during the filming of this movie. Wayne like the party hats so much, he asked John Henry to wear it in the scene where he places a gift on the sleeping "Lisa" the evening before the final battle. John Henry's brother Caesar, was his stand-in during the movie and Caesar is the one who appears in the back of the wagon during the evacuation of the non-combatants scene.
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Re: Cut Scenes.

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:30 am

Thanks for the insight, Mustang.

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Extended cantina dancers scene, unfortunately cut. (Since when can you have too much of a good thing?)
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Re: Cut Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:43 am

Theresa Champion once told me that she was not the first choice for the Cantina table top dance. However, when her husband Willie showed up with her in tow, Duke insisted that she audition. After she refused several times, she finally relented and Duke hired her. Also, did you know that the dancer in the "flamenco" dancer scene along the riverbank was actually the head choreographer for the film?
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:15 pm

Okay let me see if I have this correct. I am going to list as close as I can the missing scenes as they would have been in the film.
Houston's army arrival and leaving
Travis and Bowie shortly after Houston's leaving
Crockett's arrival in town
Dance scene in Cantina
The Party(Blind Nell and Jocko dance)
Carlos Arruza scene by creek
Mexican forces arriving
Jethro singing Green Leaves of Summer
Crockett during battle throwing lance
Any more????
I did not include Director's cut scenes that have been restored.
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby wconly on Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:58 pm

There are probably more than we know about. From what I have read elsewhere, Wayne's first cut was well over six hours long! So, I am certain there is a great deal none of us will ever see. W>
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby Davy on Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:39 pm

Virgina Shahan herself once told me she watched a 6
hr rough cut version while the film was being done! :o

I wonder if anyone has ever got her story on film?

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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:08 am

Additional scenes;
As Smitty carrys a log on his shoulder, he swings it around and hits Carol Baxter in the head, knocking her to the ground. Olive Carey then throws a bucket of water at him.

Extension of Carlos Arruza scene. As the lancers leave the creek, they ride up the bank where they meet a Mexican family. The family is questioned and Carlos/lancers ride away. The family, in turn, speak with another peasant and tell him to warn Bexar. The peasant mounts his horse and rides away. This is the same individual you see riding into town, later in the movie, warning of the advance of Santa Anna.
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:05 am

Cool, John. Never knew that there was a link from an earlier (cut) scene for "Soldados! Soldados!" He sure wasn't a very early warning for them!

By the way, how come your date on the post is tomorrow instead of today? No WONDER you have been finding this stuff out! You are a man of tomorrow!!!!! :lol:
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:08 am

Never mind. It corrected itself. Really, it said "Saturday, October 11, at (something) A.M." Or I wish I may be shot.
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby alamobill on Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:53 am

I've noticed that the posts are about 6hrs. or so ahead of our time. I believe that since Mo started this forum, he may have set the time for the posts on Welsh time?
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:02 pm

Don't know Rich. Maybe I'm just a forward thinking kind of guy. Either that, or I set up the wrong time zone when I registered, which is probably more likely.
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby Davy on Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:07 pm

MUSTANG wrote:Don't know Rich. Maybe I'm just a forward thinking kind of guy. Either that, or I set up the wrong time zone when I registered, which is probably more likely.


... he haw hehaw ...he's just ahead of his time! :o :D

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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby mrbassbone on Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:20 pm

Was this just a staged pic or a scene cut and not used?
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby mrbassbone on Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:46 pm

Jocko's Death....too bad we never saw what was filmed....
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby alamojim on Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: the scene where the Bexareno rides in yelling,"Soldatos!", just prior to that is the scene with the cavalry crossing a river. Look in the lower right corner of that scene and you'll see a little girl hiding behind a tree as the cavalry rides by. This is presumably the daughter of the family questioned in the cut scene. Also, Jocko's death was filmed,you just have to look closely to see it. At the begining of the final battle, there's a scene by a cannon. Look closely and you'll see Jocko and a tall Texan in a fringe coat (he came in with the Gonzalez volunteers in the restored version - I think his name was George Ross) firing their rifles. Just as they fire, the cannon blows up. That's presumably how Jocko ended up where we see him lying as Mrs. Dickinson walks by.
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:01 pm

The tall Texan in the fringed coat was Wayne's original stand-in who was eventually replaced by Marshall Jones. Sharp eye;the Texan appears in the Gonzales scene as well as the final battle.

The previous photo shows Wayne hitting a Mexican lancer on top of the flag mound during the final battle. This scene was filmed but not used. An extended version of this sequence can be seen in Brian Hubermann's documentary.
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby alamobill on Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:52 am

The previous photo shows Wayne hitting a Mexican lancer on top of the flag mound during the final battle. This scene was filmed but not used. An extended version of this sequence can be seen in Brian Hubermann's documentary.


John, I think this scene did stay in the final cut. See below.

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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby Chaska on Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:18 am

MUSTANG wrote:Additional scenes;
As Smitty carrys a log on his shoulder, he swings it around and hits Carol Baxter in the head, knocking her to the ground. Olive Carey then throws a bucket of water at him.

Extension of Carlos Arruza scene. As the lancers leave the creek, they ride up the bank where they meet a Mexican family. The family is questioned and Carlos/lancers ride away. The family, in turn, speak with another peasant and tell him to warn Bexar. The peasant mounts his horse and rides away. This is the same individual you see riding into town, later in the movie, warning of the advance of Santa Anna.


Here are some pix from these scenes...

Image
Image
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby Chaska on Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:34 am

A scene was shot of a confab in one of the jacales near the row of arches off to the screen "southwest" of the fort before the raid
for cattle, but it wasn't used in the original cut...
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby Seguin on Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:57 am

It´s very interesting to see pics from those missing scenes! - Thanks, everybody!
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:52 am

Davy wrote:Virgina Shahan herself once told me she watched a 6
hr rough cut version while the film was being done! :o

I wonder if anyone has ever got her story on film?

Davy


A rough cut of almost any movie could be six hours long. Virginia didn't understand what she was looking at. She said that she could hear Wayne swearing in the background sometimes. This would most likely be after he said "cut." What this tells me is that it was truly the editor's "first assembly." Stuart Gilmore would have already made his selection of takes, so that there would only be one take of every angle, but the rule is (or at least *was* before the days of video editing) that every shot is spliced in "from camera start to camera finish." This means scene slate, verbal ident. and any tail after the director says "cut." Most camera takes are greatly overshot with overlapping action so the editor can find a matching cut-point to its preceeding and following scenes. Thus, a shot will often be almost twice as long as what is finally used from it. That said, a six hour first assembly for a final cut of three hours and twelve minutes is actually conservative and no indication of anything being cut out. Of course, we know that a lot was cut.
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby AlamoMo on Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:27 pm

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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:01 pm

The scene NOT used was Wayne throwing the lance. I wish he had left it in.
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby wconly on Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:50 pm

Wow! Talk about missing scenes...I watched the Waynamo on the Hallmark Movie Channel this morning and boy did they cut that 'puppy' up! It was really tragic! But, I will say this -- it sure moved fast :roll: ! W>
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:08 pm

Fargo Fenwyck wrote:The scene NOT used was Wayne throwing the lance. I wish he had left it in.


Often, when an editor (or director) decides to cut out a scene (if not because of producer dictate), it is because the scene is inferior to the rest of the film and would weaken it. Observe the pedestrian directing and acting in the birthday party scene. That scene would have been the first to go, had I been editing. It certainly adds to our understanding of the original intent of the film, but, if it's lame, it will only cause the film to be less than it could have been without it.

What I'm saying is the film is most likely better off without the scene.

Then again, I see nothing wrong with the action scenes of the chase back to the Alamo after sighting the cattle, and they were cut. So.... go figure.
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Re: Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:11 pm

This is also a good explanation for why John Lee says that his director's cut of Alamo04 would only be 15 minutes longer than the current version. A lot of wonderful stuff exists, but only build the film out of what is the best for telling the story in the must succinct way. Less is more -- ALWAYS.
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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby AlamoMo on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:03 pm

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Jocko and Nell dance at "last night's party".
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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby Seguin on Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:53 pm

Nice pic! Good ole Jocko.
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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby Davy on Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:48 pm

Ya see how it is doncha fellas? :o

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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:16 pm

She's never said a word of pity for herself in all the years I've been stepping on her feet.
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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:18 pm

You get back up on the wall, Jocko, 'cause I've got another one prettier than you... waiting for me in Gonzales! ;)
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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:19 pm

...and maybe I can't see, but I'm just as good as any woman in Texas, and it's my right to go find somebody who doesn't step all over my feet when we're dancing!
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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby Davy on Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:19 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:...and maybe I can't see, but I'm just as good as any woman in Texas, and it's my right to go find somebody who doesn't step all over my feet when we're dancing!


Wall mebee iffin she could see ... she would go find another! :o :lol:

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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby Seguin on Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:34 pm

Davy wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote:...and maybe I can't see, but I'm just as good as any woman in Texas, and it's my right to go find somebody who doesn't step all over my feet when we're dancing!


Wall mebee iffin she could see ... she would go find another! :o :lol:

Davy


...and if she had any sense of smell left. :D
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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby Rick on Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:42 pm

Hypothetical Question:

Who would have won a catfight between Blind Nell and Flaca?

(Let's assume they fought over Smitty, since he survived while Jocko, Emil and Davy didn't)
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Re: Cut Scenes

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:30 am

Blind Nell. Because she would have been able to give "what fer, while Flaca would have just kept repeating the same line in Spanish: "Como es posible, a tampoco de mira, tampoco verguenza? Como es posible, a tampoco de mira, tampoco verguenza?"
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