Cut & Missing Scenes.

Discussion On All Aspects Of The Film.

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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:55 pm

MUSTANG wrote:As Wayne started "North to Alaska" in early May, I would imagine the edit must have been completed by then, don't you think?

Good point. Certainly. He would have made all the contributions necessary by then. For perspective on this, DGA rules are that a director working for a studio who gets "first cut" (John Wayne was an independent and thus had "final cut" -- until HE chose to make major cuts.) must be allowed 13 post-production weeks to deliver his cut of the film. After that, the studio can insist on the editor making changes that they want. I'm pretty sure the period of time is 13 weeks, but if not, it's close to this. So this should provide some idea of the amount of time necessary for the director to guide the film editor into the channel he wants. Then, after a point, he could conceivable walk away and only check back once in a while when questions arise or he wants to see what the editor has done.

All the director really has to do with the editor is go through the printed footage and make choices of which takes of which angles he wants for every scene, and then basically when he wants the scene to feature Widmark rather than Harvey during dialogue and whether in medium shot or close up, etc. The editor assembles all that, bringing his expertise to the table regarding timing and cutting point from angle to angle. Then the director will review his work and make suggestions or demands. All this until his finished cut is achieved the way he wants it.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:12 am

A cut scene. (Or so Rich Curilla allows.)
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:28 pm

This got a lot of laughs on Facebook. Nary a peep from anyone here.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby mrbassbone on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:43 am

NefariousNed wrote:A cut scene. (Or so Rich Curilla allows.)


She HAS to love you. It says so in the script.
"Tenacity, Dick! Stay with the B*****DS until they are on the bottom!"

"Mush" Morton to his XO Richard H. O'Kane on the USS WAHOO while on patrol in the East China Sea 1943
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby Doc on Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:00 pm

That still is posted for sale on Ebay today.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:41 am

Tejano (Toribio) Losoya has just been killed returning from a morning patrol and Travis seeks to comfort his widow, the
woman in the striped shawl. Scene seems to take place just beside Travis' headquarters stairs by the Long Barrack.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:03 am

Juan and Silvario Seguin bring in some reinforcements, including some men from Gonzales. Apparently some of them
have ridden standing up in a buckboard all 75 miles! Must've been a bumpy ride. Juan tells Jim Bowie that while many
more had wanted to come, they would only take well armed men. Huh? This was no time to be particular. Guns would be
made available soon enough after the first assault.

The scene was also supposed to have been Happy Shahan's speaking scene. Somehow, he couldn't do it, but, Bowie still
calls the man who took his place "Hap". Next to Hap is George (Kimball) Notice how George is better attired than even
Jim Bowie?
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:40 pm

Crockett and Bowie are observing Lisa Dickinson's birthday party dance. I used to think this scene was filmed above the
main gate, but now I notice the gabion, so it must be at the palisade. It's one of the few times before the final assault
where anyone shows any true concern about the situation they are in. For, just as the scene is about to fade, Crockett
peers over the wall at the increasing enemy activity, shake his head and then says in a worried tone, "They're buildin' up."
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:45 pm

NefariousNed wrote:I used to think this scene was filmed above the main gate, but now I notice the gabion, so it must be at the palisade.

How peculiar. I always thought the same thing -- until now. Half way through your sentence, I glanced down at the picture and said, "Oh! A gabion!" :?
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby Doc on Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:21 pm

Many thanks for posting these elusive screen caps. They obviously allow more reflection on the scene than a casual viewing. Does anyone have any actual stills from these scenes that they are willing to share? Mustang's tome has been thumbed so badly I'm tempted to invest in another copy, but on this site, I keep going back to the threads that feature them.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:07 pm

Doc wrote:Many thanks for posting these elusive screen caps. They obviously allow more reflection on the scene than a casual viewing. Does anyone have any actual stills from these scenes that they are willing to share? Mustang's tome has been thumbed so badly I'm tempted to invest in another copy, but on this site, I keep going back to the threads that feature them.

The book would last a bit longer if you'd stop using it as a block under the tire to keep the car from rolling. ;)
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby Doc on Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:55 pm

True enough, but if I bought another copy I can throw away my tire jack, a stepladder and my grandson's booster seat.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:46 pm

And have a good weight for the trunk when driving over snow and ice! ;)
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby SantaClaus on Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:27 pm

Wow! I'm glad you posted those "They're buildin' up" pictures. I can finally see the school bus in the background. Look to the right side of the picture, just over Widmark's left shoulder, not far from the elbow of the guy on the right. If you look toward the town, on a hill just behind it, there's a yellow school bus being driven by a Mexican soldier wearing a wrist watch. The watch reads 9 o'clock. It's a TIMEX. He's just licked it and it's still ticking. :lol:
Richard McC
p.s. Sometimes I get a little silly.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:16 am

SOMEtimes?????? :lol:
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:19 am

Go ahead and buy another copy. I won't mind. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby SantaClaus on Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:18 am

John, Your book is the greatest book I've ever read. It certainly had the greatest price of any book I've ever bought. Owning "Not Thinkin'...Just Rememberin..." is like having a set of encyclopedias all dedicated to one topic, and it weighs about the same as a set of encyclopedias, too. Since the topic of your masterpiece is perhaps the greatest motion picture ever made, it is only fitting that the book is perhaps the greatest book ever written, next to The Bible, of course. In fact, it was necessary to remove a complete set of encyclopedias while fitting your book on my shelf, next to The Bible, of course. ;)
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:07 am

The Bible and . . . Not Thinkin', Just Rememberin'. What more could anybody ever need. :lol:
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby cc nolen on Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:19 pm

Add Edmondson's and Nolen's article on the Bowie Knife in the August 2015 edition of the Alamo Journal and you are ready for life! :shock: - :roll: - :lol:
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:38 am

Richard, I'm speechless. And R :lol: :lol: ich, don't say it.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:28 am

:D
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby AlamoAaron on Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:35 am

RLC-GTT wrote:The Bible and . . . Not Thinkin', Just Rememberin'. What more could anybody ever need. :lol:


Very well said. :D
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby BexarTom on Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:26 am

OK. I've been out of the loop for quite sometime because I'm a 78 rpm record living in a digital world. In other words, I'm as dumb as a brick when incomes to anything hi-tech. That being said, how do I purchase John's book?
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:52 pm

If you can't order it online, run over to a local Barnes & Noble bookstore. As it's a POD book, they'll order one for you. Sadly for you, but fortunately for me, I'm all sold out. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:53 pm

MUSTANG wrote:Sadly for you, but fortunately for me, I'm all sold out. :lol: :lol:

Yes. I'm sure. Winter is on the way. Folks need weight in the car.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:07 pm

Yup. All them big words took a lot of ink!
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:19 pm

Plus, in addition to it's size, the book is loaded with a lot of heavy material! ;)
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:35 pm

Hummm? Heavy, man.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby SantaClaus on Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:51 pm

I was looking through my John Farkis autographed soft cover edition of "Not Thinkin',...Just Rememberin'...", and I could clearly see the much talked about school bus, right there on page 991. Does that look like the "Cut or Missing Scene" school bus to any of you?
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p.s. If you're not thinkin' it's there, just be rememberin',...I'm not all there, either. :)
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:12 pm

SantaClaus wrote:...and I could clearly see the much talked about school bus, right there on page 991.

I used to draw pictures on the blank pages of all my books too when I was little. :lol:
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:14 pm

SantaClaus wrote:...just be rememberin',...I'm not all there, either. :)

(He's not, you know. ;) )
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:07 pm

DITTO!!!!
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:33 pm

I think I asked this a long time ago. Has anyone ever placed in order all the scenes to give us a true director's VISION of the film. Are the deleted scenes still available along with the photos we have seen posted? Is it even possible if someone was so inclined?
Also was there a script made for a sequel had Wayne played Houston? I don't remember if John covered this in his book.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:12 am

I don't understand the reason for your first question, Ron. The "Director's Cut" of the film on VHS and Laserdisc IS the director's vision of the film, and that has been around since 1990. In answer to your second question, no screenplay has yet surfaced for the sequel to THE ALAMO. It would probably have been unlikely for Grant to write one until the first movie proved it was a box office hit -- which it didn't. The only thing that has made me wonder if one was indeed written is what Richard Boone says in THE SPIRIT OF THE ALAMO: "If there are any here who shrink from the issues, they need not march with us. Some must perish, but it will be glorious to fall in such a charge. Remember the Alamo." Boone says that this is what Houston said before the Battle of San Jacinto, which is not true. There is no record of him saying this -- or anything, that I know of. Thus, I have always wondered if that was from a sequel screenplay. I have little doubt that Grant wrote the line, if just for the TV production, even though there is a TV credit for -- believe it or not -- a guy named Vincent Filizola (not that different from Vicente Filisola, the real Santa Anna's second commander in chief).
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:52 pm

By vision I mean ALL the scenes shot and then deleted or not used at all. Texans arrival, cantina dance, the bit for the "tag" in the cantina.
I fully understand a lot of film is shot and discarded for whatever reason on all films but is any of it kept. Case in point "1776"
Can photos be implanted into the story line as "Lost Horizon". Just wondering. I am not talking about any kind of a restoration. Maybe a continuity of some sort.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby gh1836 on Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:59 pm

That would be great Ron. I'd love to see all the shots that didn't make the directors cut. Maybe death scenes of some of the other characters Lightfoot, and others. I've heard there was more shot of Bull's death scene then made the screen. The scene where Crockett and the Tennesseans enter San Anton. etc. I doubt they are with us anymore. Probably gone after editing the directors cut was done. I edited a industrial film once from my home. The director called me and said some of the clients for this film would be by to see what I had done. So I cleaned up my editing room picking up the 16mm trims of picture and fullcoat from the floor and putting it in the trash. The director arrived before the clients and wanted me to pour the trims and fullcoat out on the floor not to save them but to make it appear hard work I guess. :lol:
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:47 pm

Gary is pretty close to describing Hollywood technique too. Trims (the heads and the tails of each camera take or what you are trimming from the workprint while editing) are considered trash. Sometimes an assistant editor will file little rolls of cuts that are long enough to project, but probably not. It would all be like saving the chips and chunks of stone when sculpting a statue. You have a hunk of rock (that is the original film as shot) and you hone it down to the work of art and throw away everything you don't want the public to see. You just want them to see your vision -- the edited version. Of course, the final word on this would be from John Farkis, because he has been in touch constantly with film editor Stuart Gilmore's son, who worked as assistant editor with his dad on THE ALAMO -- the guy responsible for filing and storing.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:07 am

Yes, Ron. To answer your question, there are at least two folks who have placed in proper sequences, all the scenes filmed, whether used or not" Ashley and I. I'm not sure how many photos Ashley has but my collection now numbers over 10,000 to 12,000. I'm sure Ashley no doubt has more of the scenes filmed but not used than I, but, regardless, it does make a fascinating viewing experience. I've been fortunate to collect stills from numerous sources over the last few years and it's amazing what comes up sometimes. Flaca and her bird, other defenders death scenes, extended version of the night-time party, etc. Supposedly, there is even a scene with the entire on-site Wayne family, excluding Duke, but I've never seen it.
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby MUSTANG on Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:17 am

P.S. There are tons of photos in old newspaper files, museums, the Institute of Texas History, etc. And, I've been able to interview hundreds of folks associated with that film. Most have been more than willing to share their family photo collections. Sometimes, those number in the hundreds, believe it or not. Plus whatever you can buy on various websites. You never know what you might find. If Jean ever knew how much I've spent on this stuff..... LOL!
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Re: Cut & Missing Scenes.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:23 pm

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...would it be possible for a guy to saddle up and visit you and see this item.?
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