Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Discussion On All Aspects Of The Film.

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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:51 am

RLC-GTT wrote:I think Ned's been sniffing his running socks.

I wouldn't just make this stuff up. Heard it SOMEwhere!
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby mrbassbone on Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:01 am

NefariousNed wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote:I think Ned's been sniffing his running socks.

I wouldn't just make this stuff up. Heard it SOMEwhere!


Yeah...He heard it all right....THROUGH THE GRAPELINE or was that GRAPEVINE.
"Tenacity, Dick! Stay with the B*****DS until they are on the bottom!"

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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:10 am

Here it is! From way back in 2009. So my memory is not that bad, after all. And besides, would someone with the integrity of Dennis Miller
just be making something like that up?!
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:41 am

John, you need to rewrite your book! Dennis Miller says! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: (What a crock............!)
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby BexarTom on Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:50 am

Perhaps I'm dreaming, but I thought I read (perhaps in this forum) that Wills was nervous about falling off the stairways and onto some mats below and had to be talked into it. Could that be what this story is all about?
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby MUSTANG on Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:23 pm

See, I said it wasn't me. And if I even thought about re-writing it, Jean would shoot me!!! LOL!
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:50 pm

He did do some riding. Had to get up there somehow....apple crate??? Didn't he DO the mud slide in "McLintock"?
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:58 pm

I have never heard that there was anything wrong with Chill Wills that would keep him from doing everything any of the principles could do. Happy Shahan, however, used to say that he had to bail Chill out of jail in Ciudad Acuña several time because he would get drunk in Mexico. Happy also said this about Arthur Hunnicutt, so it could just be part of Happy's "storytelling." ;)
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby SantaClaus on Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:34 am

Maybe someone said that Chill Wills was known to "hoist a few shots" here and there, and someone else maybe said that the Chill Wills death scene was shot from a crane, then the stories got mixed together and morphed into "Chill Wills was strapped to a crane and hoisted onto the steps for his death scene".
It's like that old game of "Telephone", where one person whispers a sentence to another, who passes it on to another, and it keeps getting passed along until the last man says the sentence aloud, and everybody laughs because by the time it gets to the last man it's been altered into something very different.

Was it in John's book or in Huberman's documentary where I saw Dean Smith saying that he was the soldier that Chill Wills clubs and knocks off the steps, and Wills was so into the scene that he knocked Dean Smith out, or nearly out, as the swinging rifle made contact with Dean's head? Do I have the story right, or am I mixed up?
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:41 am

You are correct as to the event, I'm just not sure it was Dean. John Farkis? Where are you?
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby SantaClaus on Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:43 am

RLC-GTT wrote:You are correct as to the event, I'm just not sure it was Dean. John Farkis? Where are you?

I saw a John Farkis post or book comment about a photo of that scene, and I recall John (or somebody) saying that Dean Smith was one of the soldiers behind Chill Wills, which surprised me after my having been told that Dean Smith was the soldier coming up the stairs and getting clubbed in the head. I will try to backtrack and find the references for the conflicting information about which soldier Dean Smith was in that scene.

My edit here: I found in John's book, pp. 568-569. It was Dean Smith that Chill Wills nearly knocked out as Dean ran up the stairs toward him. Now, where on the forum did I see a post with a picture of this scene, but a different soldier is identified as Dean Smith? :?:
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby alamobill on Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:14 am

SantaClaus wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote:You are correct as to the event, I'm just not sure it was Dean. John Farkis? Where are you?

I saw a John Farkis post or book comment about a photo of that scene, and I recall John (or somebody) saying that Dean Smith was one of the soldiers behind Chill Wills, which surprised me after my having been told that Dean Smith was the soldier coming up the stairs and getting clubbed in the head. I will try to backtrack and find the references for the conflicting information about which soldier Dean Smith was in that scene.

My edit here: I found in John's book, pp. 568-569. It was Dean Smith that Chill Wills nearly knocked out as Dean ran up the stairs toward him. Now, where on the forum did I see a post with a picture of this scene, but a different soldier is identified as Dean Smith? :?:


Look at pg.44 of Behind The Scenes Photographs. On August 29th, 2011 at 8:18 p.m. I posted three screen captures of Chill Wills' death scene. In the first one, Dean Smith is standing on the wall behind and to Chill Wills right side. Dean is in the red uniform and is holding a sword. In the second one he has jumped down from the wall onto the stairs and Wills is whacking him in the head. The third one shows Dean holding his head as he is falling. I also posted Dean's comments about the scene.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby SantaClaus on Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:26 pm

alamobill wrote:
SantaClaus wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote:You are correct as to the event, I'm just not sure it was Dean. John Farkis? Where are you?

I saw a John Farkis post or book comment about a photo of that scene, and I recall John (or somebody) saying that Dean Smith was one of the soldiers behind Chill Wills, which surprised me after my having been told that Dean Smith was the soldier coming up the stairs and getting clubbed in the head. I will try to backtrack and find the references for the conflicting information about which soldier Dean Smith was in that scene.

My edit here: I found in John's book, pp. 568-569. It was Dean Smith that Chill Wills nearly knocked out as Dean ran up the stairs toward him. Now, where on the forum did I see a post with a picture of this scene, but a different soldier is identified as Dean Smith? :?:


Look at pg.44 of Behind The Scenes Photographs. On August 29th, 2011 at 8:18 p.m. I posted three screen captures of Chill Wills' death scene. In the first one, Dean Smith is standing on the wall behind and to Chill Wills right side. Dean is in the red uniform and is holding a sword. In the second one he has jumped down from the wall onto the stairs and Wills is whacking him in the head. The third one shows Dean holding his head as he is falling. I also posted Dean's comments about the scene.

Thanks for sending me to the right place to check out where Dean Smith was in Chill Wills's death scene. I had not noticed before looking there that Dean starts on the wall and jumps to the steps to get his head knocked off. I had been thinking that he began his journey from the bottom of the stairs like those other guys.
You saved me a lot of searching, and it was great to look at all those pictures again. Great posts and pictures! I just can't get enough of John Wayne's "The Alamo."
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby MUSTANG on Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:48 am

See, you guys don't need me...which is what Jean has been telling me for years. LOL! Just kidding kiddo.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:07 pm

An interesting angle on Wayne as Crockett blowing the powder magazine. (Mo Jones Collection)
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby cc nolen on Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:06 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:I have never heard that there was anything wrong with Chill Wills that would keep him from doing everything any of the principles could do. Happy Shahan, however, used to say that he had to bail Chill out of jail in Ciudad Acuña several time because he would get drunk in Mexico. Happy also said this about Arthur Hunnicutt, so it could just be part of Happy's "storytelling." ;)

Hmmmm! That sounds familiar to me....Old John W Smith has a charge acct. at the Acuna Jail - :o ......... :lol:
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby SantaClaus on Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:27 pm

NefariousNed wrote:An interesting angle on Wayne as Crockett blowing the powder magazine. (Mo Jones Collection)

I really like that picture. Anybody know how many takes it too to get the torch to land as it did among the barrels after John Wayne tossed it?
This photo reveals what looks like electrical cable on the ground going into the powder magazine. That reminds me of a question. I've always wondered how they did the special Effects of the beginning of the explosion when the torch ignites the powder. Now that I see the cable, did they use lights that perhaps were turned up slightly as the torch got tossed in, so there would be the illusion of the torch illuminating the room with an orange glow. Then, at ignition, suddenly brighten those same lights plus add something in post production? It happens very quickly and is done in just a few frames before switching to the exterior shots of the massive explosions.
I thought the sequence looked pretty good. Anyone have any insights into to the step by step moments of the torch toss and explosion? :?:
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:07 pm

As has been pointed out the explosion comes from across the room. That seems also the direction of where the cable was.
John if you don't need us, can we get a refund on your book :roll:
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby SantaClaus on Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:43 pm

Fargo Fenwyck wrote:As has been pointed out the explosion comes from across the room. That seems also the direction of where the cable was.
John if you don't need us, can we get a refund on your book :roll:

It's possible that the flash from across the room is simply John Wayne lighting up another cigarette. :lol:
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:46 pm

Smitty (Frankie Avalon) has words with a Texican Alamo defender (Jack Edmondson).
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby MUSTANG on Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:48 pm

Take a real close look at the magazine explosion. If you go frame by frame you can see that there is a jump cut just before the explosion. Don't know how many takes but it seems the electrical cable ignites the explosion. Crew members behind the wall next to the doorway said they had to jump out of the way when the torch was tossed in. Must have bounced around before they got the take they wanted.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:04 pm

Unrelated to this, there is a major jump-cut in the exterior scene from the "south" between the moment when the holes blow out the side of the church and the big explosion detonates. This is a normal technique in editing. Often, even well-planned and executed timing between actions needs to be "tightened" when the editor looks at it later in the editing room. Snipping a few frames out between the moments of action solves the problem. BUT THEY SHOULDN'T DO IT WHEN STUFF LIKE SMOKE OR DUST IS IN THE FRAME, because it is a dead give-away. Another solution is sticking a "cut-away" shot in between -- like an angle of somebody watching, but of course that would be out of place in that explosion set.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:06 pm

NefariousNed wrote:Smitty (Frankie Avalon) has words with a Texican Alamo defender (Jack Edmondson).

Ned, are you saying that IS Jack? Or that it looks like him? He was just a boy then.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby AlamoAaron on Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:02 am

NefariousNed wrote:Image
This I am told by John Farkis is: Joan O'Brien's Double


Why did Joan O'Brien need a double?
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby SantaClaus on Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:33 pm

She just needed a stiff drink, and a shot wasn't enough. Maybe? :lol:
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:29 pm

SantaClaus wrote:She just needed a stiff drink, and a shot wasn't enough. Maybe? :lol:

Would you believe that, in spite of the above, we are still hoping that "Santa Claus" is coming to town. :lol:
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:42 pm

AlamoAaron wrote:
NefariousNed wrote:Image
This I am told by John Farkis is: Joan O'Brien's Double


Why did Joan O'Brien need a double?

Every star has a double on the set -- a person who looks enough like the star to "double" that star in a semi-distant to distant camera angle. Count on it in most cases that, if you can't actually see the star's face, it is the "picture double," (not to be confused with their "stunt double," if one is needed). This is out of consideration for the professional needs of any lead player to study lines, rehearse, or simply relax in between his or her dialogue scenes and other close angles in which they could be identified. Jimmy Stuart's picture double on Bandolero! was Ted Mapes. Principle actors will also each have a "stand-in." This is simply a local who is about the same height and body size as the star so he/she can stand in place of the actor on a mark or perform the basic moves of an actor during camera placement and tech rehearsals. This would waste the actor's energy and take them away from their main jobs which are to study, rehearse and act. You don't wear out an actor's brain by making him/her go through hours (sometimes) of technical rehearsals. This isn't pampering, it is production necessity.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby MUSTANG on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:01 am

As most of you know, Marshall Jones was first Wayne's stand-in, then he was an extra and then he was Wayne's double. If you see Wayne in background from his back side, chances are that was Marshall. By the way, I understand that he is feeling very poorly and is in a hospital in Dallas.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:06 am

MUSTANG wrote:As most of you know, Marshall Jones was first Wayne's stand-in, then he was an extra and then he was Wayne's double. If you see Wayne in background from his back side, chances are that was Marshall. By the way, I understand that he is feeling very poorly and is in a hospital in Dallas.

Prayers and warm wishes going Marshall's way!
NefariousNed wrote:Image
Robert Harris, Ned Huthmacher, and Marshall Jones
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:35 pm

"Seems like the answer to a prayer!" The scene where Crockett, Beekeeper and Smitty bring in the wagon of gunpowder.

Look at that Texan with the top hat behind Ken Curtis. He looks like he walked out of "The Alamo (2004). Very out of place
amongst all those "cowboy" types.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby Rick on Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:39 pm

NefariousNed wrote:"Seems like the answer to a prayer!" The scene where Crockett, Beekeeper and Smitty bring in the wagon of gunpowder.
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Look at that Texan with the top hat behind Ken Curtis. He looks like he walked out of "The Alamo (2004). Very out of place
amongst all those "cowboy" types.



Looks kinda like stuntman Jim Burk.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby NefariousNed on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:02 am

Thanks, Rick. I wonder why he was one of the lucky ones to get a good costume? Some of the other Texan costumes
are downright embarrassing. Many of the extras look like they are wranglers from Happy's Ranch. Modern jeans, shirt,
cowboy hat, zipperfly pants with belt loops, boots. It also seems that Western Costume must've been rather shy on
coats, too. Though the weather in the film is supposed to be quite cold, most Texans sport just a shirt, or shirt with
cowboy vest, with neckerchief.

If they (costuming) went through the trouble of making the entire Mexican army look so good, why were the few Texan
defenders given just anything they could find off the rack?
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby Rick on Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:51 pm

You're quite right -- lotsa Cowboy-lookin' folks in that film. I thought the uber-widebrimmed hat Wayne wore when fighting Sand's goons looked pretty silly, and I swear Widmark's hat in this one is the same hat he wore in other Westerns.

I keep thinking of the first month of filming when many actors and extras wore wool or leather duds, and doubtless sweated up a storm.

I liked Denver Pyle's hat best, and thought the buckskin coat Boone wore in his last scene looked cool.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:40 pm

If made-for-TV movies are an example (and they're probably not), hats are often the choice of that actor. (One of the reason's TV movies lack the art that theatrical features attempt.) On The Alamo: 13 Days to Glory, I saw the wardrobe person show James Arness a selection of hats -- all Matt Dillonesque -- and Arness selected the one with the broadest brim. After looking at his reflection in the windows of the bank building, he turned to me and said, "What do you think?" Of course, I answered, "Looks great!" :roll: Stars are, of necessity, very conscious of the screen image that has made them famous and have certain rules written into their contract to maintain that image. Arness' broad cowboy hat put him on the map, so he insisted. Likewise, Jason Patric insisted that he not have Bowie's long sideburns because his face had been so well established without them -- and that is indeed actor territory, not that of the makeup or wardrobe folks. With Billy Bob Thornton's Crockett, on-camera wardrobe tests during preproduction proved that Billy lost his excellent Crockett look as soon as his center-parted long hair was hidden, thus no coonskin, and he carried his other hat with him. On the other hand, Patrick Wilson was a newcomer to the movie screen and was playing a character who would have a giant character arc from a weak commander to the strongest one during the 138 minutes of the film, thus his hat (with a slight readjustment on his head) could look Buster Brown or gallant, depending on the scene. (This last observation is my own. I asked Dan Orlandi if he planned for that, and intimated that he did not.)
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:33 pm

Wayne and Widmark near the SW corner. Is that Pappy Ford standing by the cannon and "framing" a shot? He's got the hat and sunglasses.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:40 pm

It looks more like William Clothier to me. I don't think Ford could have got his leg up that high. :lol:
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:26 am

I know it isn't Clothier. I can spot him a mile away, after having watched him work for ten weeks. And it doesn't look like Ford to me. I think Ron is right. Ford wasn't that athletic in 1959.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby MUSTANG on Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:15 am

Doesn't look like Clothier or Pappy to me either.
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:58 pm

I don't know.....I pored over this section pretty good and even found Rich where you did NOT know Clothier in your own words :P I still think it's Clothier.
The hat fits, the shirt and pants fit other photos. Dare I say you two could be wrong? :shock:
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Re: Behind The Scenes Photographs.

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:45 pm

John could be wrong. You could be wrong. I could not be wrong. It is NOT William H. Clothier. (But John is rarely wrong.)
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