The Movie Uniforms & Weapons.

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The Movie Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby AlamoMo on Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:12 pm

The Uniforms & Weapons.

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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:03 am

Back in 2006, Alamo Mo got an early Christmas gift from Santa---
An original lancer's uniform from THE ALAMO (1960)
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby henrywarnell on Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:45 am

The seven barrel volley gun used by Richard Widmark in the Alamo film is said to be a rendition of the gun made by Hennry Nock of London, i thought this article may be of interest.

The Nock volley-guns did see action with the Royal Navy but they were never a popular arm with users, being elbowed on the grounds that it was cumbersome and un-portable (the guns were never fitted with a carrying-sling), took far too long to load, had to be used at close-range to be effective and was extremely unpopular for a seaman to fire compared to a conventional naval swivel-gun using a peg to fix the swivel to a deck or boat to avoid the firer having to cope with the heavy recoil - and it was also hinted that the muzzle-blast from these guns in action put the sails of the ship in danger of catching fire far more than inflicting serious damage on the enemy. Admirals Howe and Nelson are recorded as making unfavourable comments about the gun and dismissing them from Navy ship-board use - most of the volley-guns made by Henry Nock by 1805 seem to have been either placed in store ashore, scrapped or sent to Australia for use by the prison-guards in penal settlements - who unfortunately for posterity and students of this particular arm never left us any record of serious use or their opinion of this gun Overall length: 37 inches Barrel length: 20 inches Calibre: 0.52 inch Weight: 16 pounds.
About 500 of the first model were produced in 1780. The first model has a back-action flintlock, with the frizzen-spring made in a sort-of ‘L’ shape forward of the cock. The lock-plate is stamped ‘TOWER GR’ and the trigger-guard is slightly oval.
A further 100 of the second model were produced in 1787. Again with a back-action flintlock, but this time with a more conventional frizzen-spring fitting - but mounted ‘in reverse’ of the usual position. The trigger-guard is shorter and thicker than previously and rounder in shape and the angle of the stock to the barrel-cluster has been changed.
The volley-gun used on the long-running and highly-successful television series Sharpe - which became popularly known on the film-set as ‘Mr Nock Junior’ through being a 30% reduction in size, weight and calibre.
‘Devastating’ only partly describes this gun in action … there is no doubt that anyone faced with this weapon - and a possible use in anger - would find it an extremely daunting prospect and in 1994, the owner of the gun likened firing the volley-gun ‘live’ to him being fired out of a cannon into the front of a moving train – as the reader can imagine, it takes a very brave man to fire this gun from the shoulder. The psychological effect on a body of men faced with such a weapon in the hands of an antagonist is roughly the same as the trepidation felt by the prospective firer - the concussion and blast from such a fully-loaded weapon should not be under-estimated as a conservative estimate through required Proof of the power generated at the breech is a pressure of seventy tons per square inch ... a greater ballistic pressure than a modern .44 calibre Magnum armour-piercing round.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:04 am

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Mock up of the Nock Volley gun located in Jim Bowie's room at Alamo Village, alongside the rubber Iron
Mistress knife that Richard Widmark used in his death scene. The knife is in collection of Joseph Musso.
John/henrywarnell, do you remember who Rich Curilla said constructed the Nock Volley replica? I believe
it is someone in Alamo Village.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby henrywarnell on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:06 am

No Ned, I don't remember what Rich said, as you know, I don't hear very well. The mock up is not a professional piece of work, it probably looks o.k. from about 100 yards. The Nock Volley Gun has not got bands around the barrels to hold them together. When I get round to posting the St. Ives pictures you will see two flintlock pistols made by Henry Nock that are on display at the National Maritime Museum in Cornwall.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby Seguin on Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:49 am

Nefarious wrote:Back in 2006, Alamo Mo got an early Christmas gift from Santa---
An original lancer's uniform from THE ALAMO (1960)


Wow, that´s some Christmas present! What a wonderful item to have for a die hard Waynamo buff! Congrats, Mo!

Henry Warnel: Thanks for posting the article about the Nock Volley gun! It´s an interesting read. That gun must have a terrible recoil when fired. No wonder it never became a popular weapon.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:32 am

Conceptual artist John Jensen did these watercolor
paintings for John Wayne's 1960 film, THE ALAMO.
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Texicans.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:32 am

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Mexican infantrymen.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:33 am

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Mexican dragoon.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby Seguin on Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:00 pm

Not bad drawings at all! I like the sketchy look they have...
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby Davy on Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:35 pm

Here is some info on the Nock Volley gun .. and an intresting video as well on them & blunderbusses!

http://www.95thrifles.com/95th/history/ ... /nock-gun/

http://www.southessex.co.uk/weapons/nock.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TnCKB8PuiM

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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby Seguin on Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:16 pm

Great links! Thanks...
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby NefariousNed on Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:08 pm

I guess I could've just as easily posted this photo here...
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Stuntman,/actor Robert Harris holds the converted Springfield trapdoor rifle he used in THE ALAMO.
Notice the fake lock that was attached to make the weapon more period-looking.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby NefariousNed on Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:09 pm

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Robert Harris' buckskin jacket that he wore in THE ALAMO.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby NefariousNed on Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:56 pm

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Two years ago this month, this coonskin cap was listed on eBay as one of the
caps worn by John Wayne in THE ALAMO. While the bids went up as high as
$500.00, does anyone know what finally became of the cap, or if it even really
looks like one Wayne wore in the film?
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby Seguin on Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:05 am

I seem to remember that the coon head hang lower on Wayne´s cap, than it does on this one. This one have fur underneath the head...

We can just find a pic of Wayne from the movie and compare!
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby Bromhead on Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:22 am

There were a number of Remington rolling blocks used with the white uniformed troops.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby quincey morris on Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:50 am

Has anyone, while knocking around Alamo Village, kicked up any spent "Alamo" rounds? On a couple of location shoots there some of our folks found spent 45/70 rounds.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby zapadore on Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:36 pm

I've always been under the impression that Batjac wardrobe used the Linati prints as a basis for the Mexican Army uniforms...with some influence from series like 'Zorro' and of course Walt Disney.....to this day I cringe when I see dismounted presidials running about with lances....we once had a fair weather reenactor, more of a clothes horse actually,... in SA who was invited to march with us in a parade as soldados...he insisted on wearing a cavalryman's outfit, (presidial) versus joining us as infantry then argued that cavalrymen did in fact carry their lances around with them in garrison! His documentation was a color plat from the Osprey volume on the Alamo!.....oh I do remember the frustration trying to 'enlighten' this guy......it DOES takes thinkin on...... :lol:
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby mrbassbone on Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:15 pm

Look for the behind the scenes picture of WAYNE that I posted or better yet...here it is:

Seguin wrote:I seem to remember that the coon head hang lower on Wayne´s cap, than it does on this one. This one have fur underneath the head...

We can just find a pic of Wayne from the movie and compare!
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby quincey morris on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:01 am

The Alamo used to display Wayne's coonskin cap from the film over in the "museum."
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby quincey morris on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:12 am

Regarding the Mexican uniforms,

Tom Jones, the late historical artist from Victoria, told me that at the time of the pre-production for the film, he had a studio down in La Villita. Some of the production staff came down to discuss clothing, and when it came to the Mexican uniforms, he suggested that they talk to Joseph Hefter, who was then the Mexican military historian and was one of the authors and illustrator for El Soldado Mexicano Tom said that the Wayne folks were going down to Mexico City and they would look him up. After the movie premired, Tom was corresponding with Hefter, who said they never contacted him, but they had been in Mexico City. According to Hefter, via Tom, they had gone to Medina's bookstore near the Zocolo, and had brought a copy of the Lianti book.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby Seguin on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:52 am

Thanks, mrbassbone! As you can see, there´s no fur underneath the low hanging coon head on Wayne´s coon skin cap, which were the case on that other coon skin cap. So I don´t believe it was Wayne´s cap. Here´s the pic of that other cap. You can clearly see the fur hanging down underneath the coon head.

And here´s the text Nef posted together with the pic:

Two years ago this month, this coonskin cap was listed on eBay as one of the
caps worn by John Wayne in THE ALAMO. While the bids went up as high as
$500.00, does anyone know what finally became of the cap, or if it even really
looks like one Wayne wore in the film?
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby quincey morris on Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:41 am

zapadore wrote:I've always been under the impression that Batjac wardrobe used the Linati prints as a basis for the Mexican Army uniforms...with some influence from series like 'Zorro' and of course Walt Disney.....to this day I cringe when I see dismounted presidials running about with lances....we once had a fair weather reenactor, more of a clothes horse actually,... in SA who was invited to march with us in a parade as soldados...he insisted on wearing a cavalryman's outfit, (presidial) versus joining us as infantry then argued that cavalrymen did in fact carry their lances around with them in garrison! His documentation was a color plat from the Osprey volume on the Alamo!.....oh I do remember the frustration trying to 'enlighten' this guy......it DOES takes thinkin on...... :lol:


Wasn't these guys I imagine.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby MUSTANG on Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:32 am

Thanks as well, Kevin. Never knew that about Mexico City.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby zapadore on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:17 am

No QM...those are mounted presidials,...correct...this guy would normally only do 'gigs' in town versus roughing it at a reenactment......
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby zapadore on Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:20 am

Interesting ancedote QM....while Linati was good and accurate for pre 1836 uniforms....Hefter would have really cinched it! Given the budget and the hype surrounding the movie at the time.....would've really been a plus I think! Thanks for that!
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby quincey morris on Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:12 pm

MUSTANG wrote:Thanks as well, Kevin. Never knew that about Mexico City.

zapadore wrote:Interesting ancedote QM....while Linati was good and accurate for pre 1836 uniforms....Hefter would have really cinched it! Given the budget and the hype surrounding the movie at the time.....would've really been a plus I think! Thanks for that!


Well, that is what Tom told me. I spent many interesting and delightful days off sitting in Tom's studio in Victoria discussing Texas history while he worked on projects (including the paintings he did that are on display in Goliad). He was a very gifted artist and just a great person to talk to.

Yes-could you have imagined if they had talked to Hefter? Or at least looked at the Paris painting of the Battle of Tampico?

By the way, Sol Frank in San Antonio actually made a lot of the Mexican costumes for The Last Command. You see these being sold on e-Bay as Wayne costumes, but the ones with the Sol Frank label are from the earlier film.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby alamobill on Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:56 pm

Yes, the uniforms were made by Sol Frank for the "Last Command." However, these were purchased by Western Costume and used in Wayne's "The Alamo." The interesting thing is, the uniforms as used in "The Last Command" were reversed in Wayne's "The Alamo." In other words, the cavalry uniforms used in one film were used as infantry uniforms in the other and vice versa. Also, some of the Mexican uniforms used in "Man of Conquest" were also used in Wayne's movie.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby quincey morris on Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:21 pm

alamobill wrote:Yes, the uniforms were made by Sol Frank for the "Last Command." However, these were purchased by Western Costume and used in Wayne's "The Alamo." The interesting thing is, the uniforms as used in "The Last Command" were reversed in Wayne's "The Alamo." In other words, the cavalry uniforms used in one film were used as infantry uniforms in the other and vice versa. Also, some of the Mexican uniforms used in "Man of Conquest" were also used in Wayne's movie.


That is interesting. So, the ones with the Sol Frank labels have a double worth.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby zapadore on Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:03 pm

Guess they had to squeeze every last dollar out of them!!!..A uniform that made all three movies would REALLY be a collector's item!
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:53 am

I'm pretty sure this is what we have in our museum. I wrote an article for the Brackett paper then, but don't recall exactly what I wrote (guess I have to visit the museum). I know my conclusion from the label inside the red coatee was that the jacket (which does say Republic Pictures and, I think, Sol Frank inside) could have been made for any earlier Republic movie back to Man of Conquest and could have even been floating around from the silent era movies. My opinion at that time was that any and all of these would or could have been recycled into the Waynamo.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby quincey morris on Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:00 am

This I found on the internet at http://www.collectiblefirearms.com/RiflesRemington.html

DESCRIPTION: One of the few surviving Remington Rolling Block rifles that belonged to John Wayne Production Company BATJAC. The left side of the buttstock displays company's name, "BATJAC" (please, see pictures). The rifle was used in the movie "Alamo", pretending to be a flintlock, with the light alloy plate attached to its action (not included). The holes from the nails that secured the "flintlock" plate are still visible on the right side of the buttstock (please, see pictures). Most of these guns were stored in private residence in Malibu, CA, and were consequently burned in the big Malibu fire. This one was not! The rifle is in original military configuration. Three-line Remington address with a patent date is stamped on the receiver's tang, "Remington Arms Co., Ilion, N.Y. U.S.A, Patented Octr. 22nd, 1901". The caliber designation is stamped on the barrel, "Cal. 7 mm". The rear sight is graduated from 100 to 2000 m. Fixed front sight. Two piece walnut stock with a handguard. Flat style steel buttplate. Two barrel bands. The nosecap has a bayonet lug. Two military style sling swivels. Complete with original cleaning rod. The rifles of this type were ordered by many governments in South and Central America, as well as by Mexico. CONDITION: Overall in fine condition. Barrel has 95% of thin blue. Receiver, trigger guard, barrel bands and bayonet lug are in white, as a result of over cleaning. The buttplate is covered by uniform brown patina. Excellent bore with strong and shiny rifling. Mechanically perfect. Solid stocks with some handling marks, dings and scratches. The lower part of the buttplate does not fit the stock very well, and needs to be adjusted. Light alloy flintlock plate that was nailed to the stock during the production of the movie "Alamo" is not included. Scarce! A must for a John Wayne collector! C&R required.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby MUSTANG on Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:38 am

In 1967, Wayne sold the Rolling Blocks to Tom Hennesy (Bull) and film producer Ray Pierson who were going to sell them as "Alamo" souvenirs at the 1968 San Antonio Hemisphere. However, the subsequent assassination of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King prevented any guns from being sold there. They remained in the barn of Tom's Pacific Palisades Ranch until a fire destroyed a good portion of them in 1971. Perhaps the one for sale is one of the survivors.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby quincey morris on Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:46 am

That is a great part of the puzzle. It sounds like this may be one of the survivors. I know we had a lot of the fake converted Trap Doors on the prop truck of North and South for the Mexican War scenes. If these were Wayne weapons or just those that have been used for years I am not sure.

When I was working at Remember the Alamo, we had this young militray guy who was kind of a know it all. I had my Brown Bess on display and he sounded off about how that is not what a Brown Bess looked like. He said he owned one used at the Alamo that he won in a poker game. After several minutes of a getting nowhere discussion, he announced that it loaded near the breach and had a door that popped open to load the cartridge. He said that it even had the Mexican battalion name on it. I already knew where this was going, so I went and asked what the battalion name was: he responded Batjac.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:29 am

Wayne would have LOVED it!!!! :lol:
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby zapadore on Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:13 pm

...thought I'd post this here......again...anyone out there have a total count for artillery in the Waynamo? ....including all guns large and small...
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:11 pm

Kenny Pruitt told me once, but I don't remember. Didn't connect with anything real (a Waynamo trademark). It was something like fifty or sixty for both the Alamo and Santa Anna.
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:31 am

Not that it means anything, but Laurence Harvey's Travis says '24 pieces of ordnance'.

1. small carronade poking over the hump on the chapel facade platform.
1. carriage gun atop the facade platform, aimed Alamo south.
3. carriage guns behind the palisade.
2. snub-nosed carronades on the Low Barrack roof flanking the main gate.
1. carriage gun on the SW corner cannon mound.
3 carronades on platform near the SW corner.
1 carriage gun from center of west wall that flips off the platform.
1 carriage gun on the NW corner cannon mound. (Travis' position)
2 carriage guns on cannon mound at center of north wall.
1. carriage gun behind the 'corral' by the north wall ("Battery #3, come on!")
3. mortars also behind the 'corral' by the north wall.
1 carriage gun on the cannon mound in the center of the plaza.
4. carronade guns on ground level scattered all around the compound aimed up like mortars during the final assault.
(This is the only time you see them, save in paintings and staged photos.)
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Re: The Uniforms & Weapons.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:10 am

Wow, Nef. And it even adds up to 24.

The only one I might disagree with is the three carronades on the platform near the SW corner. In dressing my model, I could only see 2 carronades on that platform. Guess I'll have to look harder.

The cannon that rolls back and off the platform next to Jim Bowie's room isn't there at any other time during the movie. That's where Thimblerig and Crockett were "just remembering." Also, I don't think that little gun was peeking out under the fallen cross in more than one or two shots. Were there three behind the palisade? I thought only two, and those were way back near the connecting wall and Mrs. Dickinson's quarters.
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