The Film Set & Location.

Discussion On All Aspects Of The Film.

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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby wconly on Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:17 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:
mrbassbone wrote:It is a better match up than Corinblithmo.

In JLH's movie, there are only two shots in the whole movie that actually disturb me regarding the *controversial* set "cheat" that Michael made. One is the angle during Travis' speech that accentuates rather than avoids the lineup of the Long Barrack and the church. The other is one where you don't even see the buildings. When Billy turns around from the palisade during the battle and yells "Behind us!" and it cuts to his P.O.V. of Mexicans inside the north wall. He is in fact looking in the correct direction based on the set, but I know (what normal folks don't) that the real Crockett in that position would be looking right square into an 18 foot high wall, and it catches me off guard every time.


Whew! I feel better now. I thought I was the only one who was thrown off balance with this shot. Every time I view it, I have to think a moment and remember the location of the chapel and the long barracks as it is done here, and not how it was in reality. W>
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby cc nolen on Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:37 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:
Nefarious wrote:Here is Rich Curilla's overlay of the real Alamo's footprint on the Ybarra set.

It may look like I have misaligned my red lines with the set, but I had to line them up with the bottoms of the walls or where they would be since the new satellite view is at such an angle it must have been over Chris Nolen's house when the photo was taken. :lol: The front line for the real long barrack is right on the bottom of the Ybarrabarracks and I used true Alamo measurements to lay my other lines in relation to that one and the S.W. corner of the Long Barrack.

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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby JB BOOKS on Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:41 pm

This keeps coming up for me, so I might as well get it out. The convento and granary are said to be 190 feet long, the east wall extension about 120 feet. The church 62'. If you add these three, you get 372', right?

Going from the NE corner, you should move 210' to the NW corner, at a slight angle. Do it yourself at home, and you end up with a west wall limited to 450', or about 75' shy of the length now commonly accepted.

In the "footprint" overlay, it looks like the redlined east wall extension is almost the same length as the convento-granary.

Another thing is that I had always heard that the Waynamo scale was 75% (though the chapel is approximately the historical size): if you follow the 190+12+62 formula, you end up with the 450' west wall, which is just about 320', or a few feet shy of 75%. Ybarra must have considered the Alamo to be about 450' long. I think Walter Lord originally gave that figure or something less.

So what's going on here?
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:29 pm

JB, it is very confusing to say the least, largely because of wall angles (as with the "slight angle" of the north wall). But let me correct your figures. The long barrack is slightly over 191 feet long. The east wall extension was slightly over 161 feet long plus the 5-1/2 foot gap between it's southern end and the north end of the long barrack. Add to that the 143-1/2 feet from the S.W. corner of the long barrack to the S.E. corner of the low barrack. (The width of the church does not apply, as it isn't part of the rectangle formed by the plaza but sits east of it). This adds up to over 500 feet already. Then, both the north wall and south wall splay out from each other in their course to the west. These figures come from archaeological evidence, the Francois Giraud survey and field notes for Sam Maverick, the surprisingly precise 1847 plat of Edward Everett and the actual location of the S.W. corner unearthed in 1979. Ground penetrating radar done by Rick Range has also confirmed the location of the west wall where it crossed Houston Street. This, and the property line street markers which follow the Giraud survey lines clearly provides us with the N.W. corner location of the compound.

Alfred Ybarra, who designed the Waynamo, was basing his groundplan on the Reuben M. Potter plat which we now know to be quite inaccurate. And frankly, I think Ybarra threw all this out the window and finally built the set from the Frederick Ray "Bird's Eye View" illustration that we all love. Plus his movie "cheats" for the Todd-AO lens which included things like making the long barrack 140 feet long instead of 191+, and greatly forshortening the eastern extension and the "low wall." He also moved the chapel forward ten or fifteen feet to make it "play" better for the camera.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:01 pm

JB BOOKS wrote:Another thing is that I had always heard that the Waynamo scale was 75% (though the chapel is approximately the historical size): if you follow the 190+12+62 formula, you end up with the 450' west wall, which is just about 320', or a few feet shy of 75%. Ybarra must have considered the Alamo to be about 450' long.

The 75% scale of the Yabarramo is publicity package information -- a simple way to explain the difference to a general audience. This was often brought up by visitors to Alamo Village (and I think I used it myself for a while), but I would correct that to 2/3 scale as a general description. In reality, however, an art director isn't ever thinking one specific scale difference. It's all based on the visual concept of the movie. What will be in the deep background most of the time (the north end); what will be in the audience's face with people in front for comparison (the chapel)... etc. Ybarra made the Alamo chapel 60 feet wide (almost the correct 62 plus feet) because that was the famous icon and Duke wanted it rendered correctly, but he also made the building only 75 feet front to back rather than 104 feet, since the Potter plat labeled it as 75 feet long IN SPITE of the whole building still being there! If Ybarra was going from any measurements, they were from this source. Potter (and thus John Myers Myers and Lon Tinkle) described the compound as being "154 yards by 54 yard." Thus I would agree that Ybarra considered the real thing to have been "about 450' long" (or 462 feet, as per Potter). The actual measurement of Ybarra's west wall is 350 feet. If you cut 462 to 3/4 size, it is 346.5, so the west wall is pretty close to 3/4 scale. His long barrack too (at 140 feet) is close to 3/4 (which would be 143.25 feet). But, from what we know now, the size of his plaza is more like 2/3, and that is what people usually mean when tourists would ask me, "Is this how big it was?" Sorry, I know this is TMI, but, hey, you asked and I was bored. :lol:
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby JB BOOKS on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:05 pm

No, that's perfect. If you get down at eye-level, the height at which things are seen and remembered, 50 or 100 feet makes very little difference.

You can see a lot of Potter in the aerial view, and in the general conception of the Wayne fort.

There may be a lot of stuff yet to know about that NW corner, and I was never satisfied with that "notch" business. And where's that entryway in there? These may have skewed the final number of feet.

It is amazing how well the Alamo is captured in the film, so that you get to know it as a place, whatever the dimensions turn out to be. It took the thing from one realm to another, from foggy legend to the hard ground.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:54 pm

Yep. Indeed. Films are there to inspire, not to inform. The Alamo(s) did their job well, because "Here we sit."

One last comment about art direction for movies. (Yeah right!) At Alamo Village, the buildings across the plaza from the Trading Post (Hotel San Antonio in the movie) that were added by 20th. Century Fox as three stores and a house in "deep background" for the hanging sequence in Bandolero! (1967) were deliberately built to 4/5 scale. The plan was that they be seen ONLY in the background beyond the hanging gallows which was in the middle of the plaza. The camera would never "see" those buildings any closer than from the Trading Post side of the plaza. Having them a tad smaller (than, say, a real house like that would have been) made them appear farther away in the movie, thus making the plaza look bigger, and it also enabled them to populate the plaza for the hanging with fewer extras and still make it look full.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby MartyB on Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:53 am

RLC-GTT wrote:When Billy turns around from the palisade during the battle and yells "Behind us!" and it cuts to his P.O.V. of Mexicans inside the north wall. He is in fact looking in the correct direction based on the set, but I know (what normal folks don't) that the real Crockett in that position would be looking right square into an 18 foot high wall, and it catches me off guard every time.



"...looking right square into an 18 foot high wall..."

Hummm...Ya don't think the real Crockett could see the northwest battery and some of the north wall with the soldado's coming in "like sheep"? Von Schmidt, and Lemon views from the artillery piece at the palisade show the northwest battery and north wall as Crockett would have seen it...the third is from the mural (don't know the artist) from Travis's northwest gun position at the Wayneamo (kinda like the Alamo viewpoint)...you can see the palisade between the low barracks and the long barracks...
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:29 pm

MartyB wrote:...the third is from the mural (don't know the artist) from Travis's northwest gun position at the Wayneamo (kinda like the Alamo viewpoint)...you can see the palisade between the low barracks and the long barracks...



Nefarious wrote:Here's my photograph copy of the Laurence Golbey painting seen on the previous page. I had the humped frame custom made for it.

Image

The original painting hangs on Laurence Golbeyse parlour wall and measures about two feet by five feet.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby MartyB on Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:11 pm

Nefarious wrote:
MartyB wrote:...the third is from the mural (don't know the artist) from Travis's northwest gun position at the Wayneamo (kinda like the Alamo viewpoint)...you can see the palisade between the low barracks and the long barracks...



Nefarious wrote:Here's my photograph copy of the Laurence Golbey painting seen on the previous page. I had the humped frame custom made for it.

Image

The original painting hangs on Laurence Golbeyse parlour wall and measures about two feet by five feet.



Great painting...a good tribute to John Wayne's movie....

One question...there seems to be a crease in the middle of the image I have...was it a double page spread in a book or magazine?
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:24 pm

MartyB wrote:Great painting...a good tribute to John Wayne's movie....

One question...there seems to be a crease in the middle of the image I have...was it a double page spread in a book or magazine?

No, Marty. When Laurence originally sent me that image, it was just two snapshots that had been taped together. :D
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:25 pm

MartyB wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote:When Billy turns around from the palisade during the battle and yells "Behind us!" and it cuts to his P.O.V. of Mexicans inside the north wall. He is in fact looking in the correct direction based on the set, but I know (what normal folks don't) that the real Crockett in that position would be looking right square into an 18 foot high wall, and it catches me off guard every time.



"...looking right square into an 18 foot high wall..."

Hummm...Ya don't think the real Crockett could see the northwest battery and some of the north wall with the soldado's coming in "like sheep"? Von Schmidt, and Lemon views from the artillery piece at the palisade show the northwest battery and north wall as Crockett would have seen it...the third is from the mural (don't know the artist) from Travis's northwest gun position at the Wayneamo (kinda like the Alamo viewpoint)...you can see the palisade between the low barracks and the long barracks...

Well no, Marty, he could not see the north wall from the middle of the palisade, where the emplacement was located. He could see the N.W. battery peeking around the corner of the long barrack, but no further to the right. Von Schmidt and Lemon forgive me, but they were using artistic license. And the Laurence Golbey painting is replicating a movie still from John Wayne's The Alamo of the set at Alamo Village, not the real Alamo.

But that wasn't my point. I was talking about where Billy is looking when he delivers his line, not what he might be able to see from there. ;) The camera is aimed straight at the inside of the palisade and Billy looks off-screen left. On the set, this was correct. He was looking directly at Travis' cannon ramp in the middle of the north wall, where the north end was filling up with soldados. But at the real Alamo, that look would have been aimed at the filled-in gate in the connecting wall between the long barrack and the church.

I am in error however by saying that the movie then cut to his point-of-view. It does not. But look at that very next shot, a wider one. He is still looking in the same direction as in the closer shot and runs in that direction before he veers further to his right toward the church barricade.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:26 pm

Image
Love that frame, Nef! Perfect!
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby MartyB on Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:30 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:
MartyB wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote:When Billy turns around from the palisade during the battle and yells "Behind us!" and it cuts to his P.O.V. of Mexicans inside the north wall. He is in fact looking in the correct direction based on the set, but I know (what normal folks don't) that the real Crockett in that position would be looking right square into an 18 foot high wall, and it catches me off guard every time.



"...looking right square into an 18 foot high wall..."

Hummm...Ya don't think the real Crockett could see the northwest battery and some of the north wall with the soldado's coming in "like sheep"? Von Schmidt, and Lemon views from the artillery piece at the palisade show the northwest battery and north wall as Crockett would have seen it...the third is from the mural (don't know the artist) from Travis's northwest gun position at the Wayneamo (kinda like the Alamo viewpoint)...you can see the palisade between the low barracks and the long barracks...

Well no, Marty, he could not see the north wall from the middle of the palisade, where the emplacement was located. He could see the N.W. battery peeking around the corner of the long barrack, but no further to the right. Von Schmidt and Lemon forgive me, but they were using artistic license. And the Laurence Golbey painting is replicating a movie still from John Wayne's The Alamo of the set at Alamo Village, not the real Alamo.

But that wasn't my point. I was talking about where Billy is looking when he delivers his line, not what he might be able to see from there. ;) The camera is aimed straight at the inside of the palisade and Billy looks off-screen left. On the set, this was correct. He was looking directly at Travis' cannon ramp in the middle of the north wall, where the north end was filling up with soldados. But at the real Alamo, that look would have been aimed at the filled-in gate in the connecting wall between the long barrack and the church.

I am in error however by saying that the movie then cut to his point-of-view. It does not. But look at that very next shot, a wider one. He is still looking in the same direction as in the closer shot and runs in that direction before he veers further to his right toward the church barricade.



Danged if you ain't right...



Seems like them movie fellers didn't quite get everything right.......
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:44 pm

MartyB wrote:Seems like them movie fellers didn't quite get everything right.......

Just like John Wayne and Alfred Ybarra, never noticing that there was a 60 foot wide river that was supposed to be between the "town and the fort."
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:53 pm

Historical details that were well-known (and had to be known by Wayne) when The Alamo was made:

A river flowed between the town and the fort.
Travis' H.Q. were on the west wall.
Only "20 or 30 head of beeves" were driven into the fort.
The battle was mostly in the dark.
There was a cannon ramp in the back of the church.
There was no cannon atop the church.
There was no such cannon on the North American continent.
Fannin's men were "ambushed" and "murdered" weeks after the Alamo men perished.
Mrs. Dickinson was not Travis' cousin.
(Since this is off topic in this thread, I'll stop here. Just sayin'...)
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby MUSTANG on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:12 am

Never let it be said Hollywood let the facts get in the way of a good story.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby MUSTANG on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:30 am

Remember, Duke's film was never really about the Alamo. It was a mechanism to elaborate on liberty, freedom, patriotism and independence. A message to those who lived under the thumb of repression. A very clear statement of principles to those who aspired to emulate the beliefs of our nation. I believe that Wayne initially planned this film as an homage to the men and women who sacrificed so greatly during WWII. But, with the Cold War and the communist peril, he realized the film could be used to send a message the rest of the world. Preachy, yes. Verbose, most definitely! But, effective.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:32 am

MUSTANG wrote:Never let it be said Hollywood let the facts get in the way of a good story.

"Facts are the enemy of truth." ;)
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby MartyB on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:29 pm

Of interest.... :D

The other day I posted this about an image I lifted from a post way back on this forum...I couldn't remember the thread so I wrote "...the third is from the mural (don't know the artist) from Travis's northwest gun position at the Wayneamo..." As ever, Ned came through with the facts and credit was given where credit was due...This is why I cringe when my son sends me Alamo images willy nilly...then it's 'to post or not to post'....

I know that some of the folks here are 'friends' over at the 'REGULARS' site...Their banner image is this painting, complete with the crease...It might be helpful if y'all were to to let ol' Steve "remember" where he got this image...That way he can give credit to the artist...and not be embarrassed...

This is the dialogue under the image... :lol: :lol:

Steve Borchelt THE ALAMO REGULARS
Share · March 5

7 people like this.

Steve Borchelt It's either storyboard art or another poster concept, but to me...it's one helluva an exciting find!
March 5 at 9:13pm

Jim CXXXXXXX awesome pic
March 5 at 11:06pm · 1

Steve Borchelt It do, Jim.
March 5 at 11:16pm · 1

Bob RXXXX Where is this from?
March 5 at 11:30pm

Steve Borchelt Just a lucky find on my part, Bob. Never saw it before in my web-hunting life.
March 5 at 11:42pm

Bob RXXXX I'd like to see a bigger copy. Any link for a closer look?
March 5 at 11:46pm

Steve Borchelt I'd have to backtrack, Bob, and follow my trail on hunts for ALAMO images. My guess is the unused artwork had to be a promotional image for the film...maybe as part of the Souvenir Book for the film's release. I'll see if I can come up with a link.
March 5 at 11:49pm

Alby CXXXXX great picture steve
March 6 at 5:30am · 1

Steve Borchelt I'm so glad I found it, Alby!
March 6 at 5:32am

Alby CXXXXX you send the picture at my e mail
March 6 at 5:33am
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:03 pm

MartyB wrote:
...I know that some of the folks here are 'friends' over at the 'REGULARS' site...Their banner image is this painting, complete with the crease...
It might be helpful if y'all were to to let ol' Steve "remember" where he got this image...That way he can give credit to the artist...and not be
embarrassed...
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This is the dialogue under the image... :lol: :lol:

Steve Borchelt THE ALAMO REGULARS
Share · March 5

7 people like this.

Steve Borchelt It's either storyboard art or another poster concept, but to me...it's one helluva an exciting find!
March 5 at 9:13pm

Jim CXXXXXXX awesome pic
March 5 at 11:06pm · 1

Steve Borchelt It do, Jim.
March 5 at 11:16pm · 1

Bob RXXXX Where is this from?
March 5 at 11:30pm

Steve Borchelt Just a lucky find on my part, Bob. Never saw it before in my web-hunting life.
March 5 at 11:42pm

Bob RXXXX I'd like to see a bigger copy. Any link for a closer look?
March 5 at 11:46pm

Steve Borchelt I'd have to backtrack, Bob, and follow my trail on hunts for ALAMO images. My guess is the unused artwork had to be a promotional image for the film...maybe as part of the Souvenir Book for the film's release. I'll see if I can come up with a link.
March 5 at 11:49pm

Alby CXXXXX great picture steve
March 6 at 5:30am · 1

Steve Borchelt I'm so glad I found it, Alby!
March 6 at 5:32am

Alby CXXXXX you send the picture at my e mail
March 6 at 5:33am



Thanks, Marty. I sent him a message on Facebook with details of the painting and artist. Hope he gives Laurence Golbey proper credit.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:54 pm

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The set after filming, from Mo's collection.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby wconly on Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:22 pm

NefariousNed wrote:The set after filming, from Mo's collection.

Wow! Great shot! That's pretty much the way it looked when I first got to visit the set .....allllllllll those years ago! I was in heaven! W>
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:48 pm

wconly wrote:
NefariousNed wrote:The set after filming, from Mo's collection.

Wow! Great shot! That's pretty much the way it looked when I first got to visit the set .....allllllllll those years ago! I was in heaven! W>

This was sometime right after filming. Batjac hadn't even picked up the cannons and caissons yet.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:36 am

RLC-GTT wrote:
wconly wrote:
NefariousNed wrote:The set after filming, from Mo's collection.

Wow! Great shot! That's pretty much the way it looked when I first got to visit the set .....allllllllll those years ago! I was in heaven! W>

This was sometime right after filming. Batjac hadn't even picked up the cannons and caissons yet.


I would've loved to see the set at that time. I know if I had pestered my parents to take us all down there, it would've fallen on deaf ears. Plus, they could not afford it.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby MUSTANG on Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:54 am

Maybe during January, 1960 when they started to dismantle everything and ship the stuff off. It took several week but they were finished by February.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby AlamoMo on Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:45 pm

I find this image sums it all up for me as to what happened on a patch of land
in Brackettville Texas back in 1959 and produced a film over 50 years ago
that we love and still discuss to this day

Thanks for posting it

Regards

Mo
Do This Mean What I Think It Do ??, " It Do "
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:46 am

It's always been one of my favorite images.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:17 am

Image
An aerial view of the pristine, freshly built set, 1958. A year of aging would help the place look lived in. (From Mo's Collection)
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:21 am

Image
There, now that's more like it. (Mo Jones Collection)
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby wconly on Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:18 pm

NefariousNed wrote:Image
There, now that's more like it. (Mo Jones Collection)

Man, I would love to see it look this way again! W>
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby Seguin on Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:09 pm

Man, I would love to see it look this way again! W>


What, you too? What a surprise! :roll: ;) :D
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:30 am

Image
Here's another version of the same photo. May be a tad clearer.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby mrbassbone on Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:26 am

Structurally, Yes. Dirt pile...no.
"Tenacity, Dick! Stay with the B*****DS until they are on the bottom!"

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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby gh1836 on Sat May 17, 2014 3:23 pm

Question for Rich or anyone else who might know. How many feet long is the palisade wall at the Waynamo? Thanks in advance.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby gh1836 on Sat May 17, 2014 5:26 pm

Hey!! Who keeps movin my posts??? ;) Rich and everyone please read the above moved post! :lol:
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat May 17, 2014 5:55 pm

gh1836 wrote:Question for Rich or anyone else who might know. How many feet long is the palisade wall at the Waynamo? Thanks in advance.

A little shy of 60 feet, probably about 57. Can't find my measurements plat, but that's what I conclude from Google Earth. Michael Corenblith's was nearly identical in length. The real palisade was 115 feet.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:13 pm

Some more images from John Farkis from his upcoming, revised book, "Alamo Village: How A Texas Cattleman Brought
Hollywood To The Old West".

Image
Filming aftermath. Profile of the chapel, breach in Jim Bowie's room wall.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:15 pm

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Waynamo "NE" corner of plaza.
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Re: The Film Set & Location.

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:16 pm

Image
Travis' destroyed headquarters on the Waynamo south end of the Long Barrack and the chapel.
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