Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Discussion On All Aspects Of The Film.

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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby MUSTANG on Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:48 am

alamojim wrote:Mustang, re: Joan's (Joan O'Brien) comment from several postings back about the Waynemo's ending being ranked in the top 50 movie endings, I was at the cast reunion when she made that comment during the symposium, but as far as I can remember, she either didn't mention where she had heard (or read that) or if she did I just don't recall the source. I tend to think, though, that she said she wasn't sure where she had read it.

Yes, I've heard that she stated that before. In fact, she also mentioned it to me in a phone interview I had with her years ago but she never stated the source. At one time, I transcribed the taped comments from the cast reunion and used some of them in my book. I'll have to dig them out to see if she quoted a source but I don't think so.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:19 pm

MUSTANG wrote:
alamojim wrote:Mustang, re: Joan's (Joan O'Brien) comment from several postings back about the Waynemo's ending being ranked in the top 50 movie endings, I was at the cast reunion when she made that comment during the symposium, but as far as I can remember, she either didn't mention where she had heard (or read that) or if she did I just don't recall the source. I tend to think, though, that she said she wasn't sure where she had read it.

Yes, I've heard that she stated that before. In fact, she also mentioned it to me in a phone interview I had with her years ago but she never stated the source. At one time, I transcribed the taped comments from the cast reunion and used some of them in my book. I'll have to dig them out to see if she quoted a source but I don't think so.

In a home video of the 1998 cast reunion at Alamo Village, LaShawn Wardlaw is seen introducing cast members from THE ALAMO inside the Alamo compound. (Cast members are seated on folding chairs alongside the palisade, while LaShawn and Virginia are over alongside the end of the Long Barrack.) As LaShawn comes to Joan O'Brien she says, "...everyone remembers her from that donkey ride out of the Alamo...Joan O'Brien..." After a beat, LaShawn continues, "Wow, I didn't realize that, but Mike has just told me that that scene is one of the top scenes in movie history for the ending of a film, so how exciting is that?" I assume LaShawn is referring to Mike Waters, as he is seen and heard elsewhere in the video. So you might ask Mr. Waters, Mr. Farkis.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby MUSTANG on Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:04 pm

Makes sense when you put it that way, Ned. I'll give him a call. But, ya doesn't has to call me Mr. Farkis. You can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or.....forget it. LOL! P.S. Thanks for the Ft. Clark photo.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:31 am

Just picking up on this. It is far far more likely that Lashawn got this information from Mike Bowlin, who was at that time our publicity man. In any event, Mike is the person I learned this from at about the same time.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:51 am

RLC-GTT wrote:Just picking up on this. It is far far more likely that Lashawn got this information from Mike Bowlin, who was at that time our publicity man. In any event, Mike is the person I learned this from at about the same time.

I see. But no source for the claim?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:12 am

Nope.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:22 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:Nope.

Some Indian told some vaquero?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby MartyB on Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:24 pm

AIN'T IT SO...

"...one of the top scenes in movie history for the ending of a film."...
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby OleMissCub on Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:46 pm

What on earth is up with that cannon rolling over? That scene bugged me even when I was a little kid.

Recoil? What's that? :lol:
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:13 pm

It was the climax of a scene the John Ford shot. He had Dickinson and others shoving langrage down the barrel -- chains, broken horseshoes, etc. -- until it was full. Then, when they fire the gun, it recoils off the ramp. It was all so naive in 50's movies! The sets -- the details of the cannon platforms -- were hardly longer than the cannon (a muzzle loading cannon needs twice it's length to roll back and load). Also, if you look at the stills for this scene, they show only two thin boards reaching at a steep angle from the ground to the platform. This apparently is the only "ramp" the cannon had by which it could be mounted. Right! A two thousand pound gun rolled up a 45 degree ramp by men standing where! There was no knowledge of these thing yet -- at least not in the movie-making world.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby OleMissCub on Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:50 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:There was no knowledge of these thing yet -- at least not in the movie-making world.


Clearly not.

I think a large cannon on top of the chapel is quite laughable as well in that film. I guess it looks cool and that's all that matters.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:44 pm

OleMissCub wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote:There was no knowledge of these thing yet -- at least not in the movie-making world.


Clearly not.

I think a large cannon on top of the chapel is quite laughable as well in that film. I guess it looks cool and that's all that matters.

Well, at least the Waynamo facade cannon platform was large enough to accommodate the cannon firing south. (David Mocniak's model.)
Image
However, I will grant you that "13 Days To Glory" putting the 18 pounder atop the chapel facade was indeed ridiculous. (With a gun crew
of one on a 4x4 platform.)
Image
Tony Pasqua and the Chapel (Tony Pasqua photo)
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:51 pm

OleMissCub wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote:There was no knowledge of these thing yet -- at least not in the movie-making world.


Clearly not.

I think a large cannon on top of the chapel is quite laughable as well in that film. I guess it looks cool and that's all that matters.

If you think that's funny, check out the ridiculous cannon up there for 13 Days to Glory! Looks like one of those barrels they used to shoot the clown out of in the circus. This was the movie that swore it was going to right all of John Wayne's wrongs -- all his violations of Lon Tinkle.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:01 pm

Ha! Ned was posting it while I was blabbing about it. That's IT!

The producer had illusions of grandeur.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:07 pm

Even the crooked cross is a Duke rip-off -- without understanding it. Thus, it truly represents the film.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby OleMissCub on Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:50 pm

NefariousNed wrote:However, I will grant you that "13 Days To Glory" putting the 18 pounder atop the chapel facade was indeed ridiculous. (With a gun crew
of one on a 4x4 platform.)
Image
Tony Pasqua and the Chapel (Tony Pasqua photo)


Bahahaha, that's worthy of Antonio's derision:

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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:08 am

Emilio is going to be having headaches. :lol:
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Re: Actual Scenes From The Alamo { 1960 } Film

Postby SantaClaus on Sat May 21, 2016 12:56 am

Reb_Al wrote:
TheLastBarricade.jpg
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I hope this photo shows up here. I searched back to near the bottom of page 2 to find what I was looking for. Yesterday I was watching the DVD battle sequence and was constantly pausing and reversing to see if I could spot small details that I had been missing because there is so much happening and the edits go by so quickly. This may be old news to most of you, but here's what I discovered for myself. I saw the detailed continuity of those last desperate moments.
After Crockett has yelled to his men to throw up a barricade, he runs west, away from the stockade and chapel area.
We next see him on the flagpole hill as the Texans roll the cannon down, and Crockett plays King of the Hill as he knocks one rider off his horse and pushes another horse and rider off the hill.
Crockett picks up his rifle and jumps over the hastily erected barricade where the cannon is now being turned to face the masses of approaching Mexicans. One Texan has the cannon plunger in hand and is also jumping across. We are to assume he just finished loading that cannon for the last time.
A Texan with a bandanna around his forehead, is holding the torch, and that guy touches off the cannon while Crockett is a few feet to his right.
The spectacular cannon blast rips into the approaching line of troops, sending many of them flying backwards.
At that same instant, the Texan who fired the cannon is shot and he drops his torch.
What I saw for the first time, in the far right of the screen, is Crockett reaching down and retrieving the torch.
Now I know how Crockett ended up with a torch while retreating from the barricade and toward the chapel.
As Crockett runs for the door, there's two red coated Mexicans who I never before understood what they were supposed to be doing there. I finally saw that they had been raising their rifles as if to shoot defenders (unseen) who would have been standing on the wall that connects Travis's HQ to the chapel. It's kind of sloppy looking, but that seems to be what they're doing until they see Crockett, who throws his rifle at them, leaving himself open to be lanced.
I used to wonder what a lancer was doing on foot. This time I saw that his horse was nearby, so he easily could have been one of the guys who lept the palisade and became dismounted.
It even seems that the Mexican soldiers who are already in the chapel and standing around like confused tourists, for a moment are startled to see the approaching Crockett and even look like they might pursue him before they seem to disappear. This would have been reminiscent of The Last Command where Crockett shoves the torch into the gunpowder just as the Mexicans are converging on him from all sides. Maybe these guys didn't pursue him toward the "powder magazine" because they saw The Last Command and were not going to fall for the same trick again. :lol:
For me, the biggest discovery was seeing Crockett pick up the torch after the cannon fired at the barricade. That's the image captured by this photo.
After all these years of watching my favorite movie, it's great to discover something new, even if it's only new to me.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat May 21, 2016 4:39 am

Well, I had a long post nearly completed and had to stop to eat -- and then I lost it when I got back on somehow. In short (probably better), congratulations! Never saw Duke there -- and didn't even after you explained. Then, finally, when that guy that I had decided was NOT Duke moved, I saw him standing spread-legged behind him and he had the torch. Good seeing, Richard!
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Sat May 21, 2016 12:55 pm

Had to get a magnifying glass to catch this one. I'll watch it later. It's one of my favorite scenes in the movie.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby MUSTANG on Sat May 21, 2016 6:48 pm

Good on ya, Richard. Nice catch. Yes, if you slow down the DVD to a frame-by-frame speed, it's amazing what you can find. If you check out some of the charging Mexicans you will see that many groups were filmed from a variety of angles; front, side and back. Then, the film was spliced into the appropriate sequence. Same thing for cannon shots. According to assistant (junior) film editor Bill Gilmore, " a cannon is a cannon is a cannon. No one will ever notice that the same shot was used over and over." A good example of this is the scene in which a Main Gate defender is shot, falls forward over the wall, and lands on the ground just as there is an explosion. This same sequence appears once in the first battle and twice in the final assault.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat May 21, 2016 7:36 pm

Richard, you are in for a real treat if you put John Lee Hancock's Alamo battle on and view it in slow motion. Much more becomes evident than you pick up by watching it at normal speed. Unlike Stuart Gilmore's editing on The Alamo (1960), which was for a time of much slower audience perception cinematically, John Lee's editor, Eric Beason, actually placed a number of subliminal cuts in his battle sequence. You are not meant to "see" them, just to be effected by the rhythms they provide, but they are all appropriate to the action, and you get a much better sense for the flow of the battle in slow motion than you do when the fast-paced editing is affecting your emotions. Try it. ;)
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby SantaClaus on Sat May 21, 2016 11:51 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:Richard, you are in for a real treat if you put John Lee Hancock's Alamo battle on and view it in slow motion. Much more becomes evident than you pick up by watching it at normal speed. Unlike Stuart Gilmore's editing on The Alamo (1960), which was for a time of much slower audience perception cinematically, John Lee's editor, Eric Beason, actually placed a number of subliminal cuts in his battle sequence. You are not meant to "see" them, just to be effected by the rhythms they provide, but they are all appropriate to the action, and you get a much better sense for the flow of the battle in slow motion than you do when the fast-paced editing is affecting your emotions. Try it. ;)

I'll give it a try. There better not be any "Drink Coca-Cola" messages in there. :lol:
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby SantaClaus on Sun May 22, 2016 12:21 am

MUSTANG wrote:Good on ya, Richard. Nice catch. Yes, if you slow down the DVD to a frame-by-frame speed, it's amazing what you can find. If you check out some of the charging Mexicans you will see that many groups were filmed from a variety of angles; front, side and back. Then, the film was spliced into the appropriate sequence. Same thing for cannon shots. According to assistant (junior) film editor Bill Gilmore, " a cannon is a cannon is a cannon. No one will ever notice that the same shot was used over and over." A good example of this is the scene in which a Main Gate defender is shot, falls forward over the wall, and lands on the ground just as there is an explosion. This same sequence appears once in the first battle and twice in the final assault.

I agree that re-using the same scene, shot from different angles can work, but not when someone watches the movie over and over again. (Who would do that?) The defender falling off the wall as a shell bursts was the first scene that I ever noticed was used more than once. Maybe that's because the camera angles aren't that much different and there's not a whole lot else going on there to distract your eyes. Then, I started seeing the different angled charging Mexicans that you mentioned.
Speaking of the charging Mexicans, there's one in particular that I applaud. The troops are clad in blue coats. The Texians are shown firing a deadly volley of rifles shots, and we see the blue coated soldiers fall. One of them looks a lot like Chuck Roberson, and he does a very dramatic chest clutching stagger and slow fall to the ground. I think that was the best Mexican soldier death moment of all of them. He doesn't just fall like most of the others. He gives it that little bit extra something, not quite a "You got me, Pal" overact, but just right. It also breaks up the monotony of Mexican soldiers just throwing up their hands and falling. You know what I mean?
That falling soldier is sans hat, and he has that wavy black hair like Bad Chuck's. If you know which scene I'm talking about, can you confirm that the soldier is Chuck Roberson?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby SantaClaus on Sun May 22, 2016 12:33 am

There's a large dark metal bell with a red wheel attached to it so that the bell could be rung by turning the wheel. It's on the ground near the outside corner of Travis's headquarters and is used to form part of the hastily thrown up barricade near the end of the battle. Does that bell serve any purpose? The warning bell was the smaller one that Chill Wills rings on the the way down, his death knell.
I always imagined that the large bell was supposed to be for the chapel bell tower which was never completed, with it's movie purpose to be something handy for that barricade. Anyone have any comments about the big bell?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Doc on Sun May 22, 2016 9:18 pm

I can't contribute anything about the bell, except that once you know it's there, it's very evident through much of the film. I just wanted to comment on the editing of the similar shots. In the final charge, there's a head on shot of Mexicans carrying the scaling ladders. On the far left, one of the soldiers falls onto a ladder that is on its side. Then there is immediately the same shot photographed from the left side. Different angle, but same stunts, same soldier falling on the side of the ladder. To show that there is no way to win, there is a shot of an Alamo cannon firing, showing a defender holding a wounded man over his shoulders. The aftermath of the shot begins several minutes later when the defenders retreat.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:43 am

"Davy. I wanna chance for my money back!"
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"Gentlemen, your feathers!"
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Re: Actual Scenes From The Alamo { 1960 } Film

Postby cc nolen on Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:32 pm

SantaClaus wrote:
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Though just a few seconds on screen, this scene is the most realistic in the movie. IMHO - Chris...
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:20 pm

Yes! And when we finally got to the point with home video where we could have a wide screen version of a wide screen movie instead of just the middle, I finally SAW the effect of the cannon shot instead of just the flames. As THE ALAMO (2004) points out clearly, this is what was happening with the Texians firing "langrage" into the masses of men. Probably the only really real historical moment in the 1960 battle scenes.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:53 pm

Main Frontal Attack
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:37 pm

The battle in 5 seconds.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby SantaClaus on Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:08 am

I like that "Battle in 5 seconds", Ned. Looks like the Texians win this inebriated, I mean, abbreviated version. Hiccup!! 'Scuse me. :D
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:35 pm

And he takes his hat off slowly...
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby SantaClaus on Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:18 pm

NefariousNed wrote:And he takes his hat off slowly...


Poor Smitty. Looks like he might as well have taken some time to have some of those Free Holy Beans back at Houston's camp. If Smitty had arrived a little earlier, he could have attacked Santa Anna's rear.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Travis247 on Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:55 pm

You know folks,
My favorite shots during the battle is the north wall cannon battery supported by the large dirt embankment. I believe there are two quick shots of the cannon being fired with the defender wearing a bandana in support. The second scene there is a small exploding projectile overhead. Really cool. Just too quick to really appreciate it. These battle scenes in Dukes Alamo 1960 are far better than any other Alamo movie battle scenes. Confusing though, one scene the artllery is there the next one piece and then at the end no artillery at all. And I'll ask again, Harvey's death struggle NW corner, the foam rubber sheets hanging down in the corner, what do they represent?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Travis247 on Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:59 pm

NefariousNed wrote:Image
This photo was taken from the Alamo-north end Long Barrack stairs looking over toward the west wall where the grenadier tossed his
grenade into that second door from the north, I believe. Or was it the third door, just left of that beehive stove. Rich? The ruins of
Laurence Harvey's battle position can be seen on the far right in the photo

Guys,

Its probably my age but looking at that photo Im getting a little turned around. That bee hive oven in the pic, was that the one where a defender was hiding during the Mexican breakthrough(ordid a bad job of playing dead) and was also covered with branches? The corral would have been to the right yes?

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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:39 pm

Correct, Frank. We are looking toward the "west" wall. The corral is on the right and its opening where the dragoons come through after galloping over the wall (LOL) when the guy falls off the horse and skidaddles. There was a ramada (arbor) over the whole area to the left of the horno (oven). The road on the upper-right leads out the breach that was still there when Ned took these photos. The broken down right end of the Indian quarters against the west wall was the section covered by straw mats in the background behind Travis during his death scene. Ned was standing on the landing at the top of the steps that went to the door to the second story "north" end of the Long Barrack -- my old quarters every summer when I worked at A.V. from 1965-1969. This view is essentially my view when sitting out there after work.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby SantaClaus on Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:01 am

Rich, I'm glad you mentioned that road going out through where the north wall breach was. I was beginning to think that I wasn't correctly remembering what I saw on my first visit, which was sometime after "Bandolero" was filmed there. Anyway, as I inspected the Alamo grounds, a pickup truck came driving through that breach and into the compound. While there, I walked inside those west wall buildings and even saw a ladder in there that looked like one of the scaling ladders from John Wayne's film.
Anyway, it's good to know that the road through the breach was not just a faulty memory. :)
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