Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Discussion On All Aspects Of The Film.

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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:46 am

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Flaca writes a letter from "Antonio Miguel de Santa Anna" To "The Honourable David Crockett Esq.."
Was "Miguel" really in the script, do you think, or did Flaca flub her line?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby MUSTANG on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:36 pm

Ned, according to the script, she didn't flub it. That's exactly the way the line read.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:51 pm

MUSTANG wrote:Ned, according to the script, she didn't flub it. That's exactly the way the line read.

Thanks, John. Perhaps the 'reasoning' for the alteration of the name was that, should the letter ever fall into the wrong hands, saavy people would know right away it was a fake. But them Tennesseans? Crockett was counting on their slow wits to prevail.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:23 pm

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Did you ever notice the look of disdain that Crockett gives Bowie right after Bowie says,
"Travis says! I wouldn't take Travis' word that night was dark and day was light!" It's
almost as though Bowie has gone down a peg respect-wise in Crockett's eyes. How do you
read it?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby caplock on Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:00 pm

Nefarious wrote:[img]
Did you ever notice the look of disdain that Crockett gives Bowie right after Bowie says,
"Travis says! I wouldn't take Travis' word that night was dark and day was light!" It's
almost as though Bowie has gone down a peg respect-wise in Crockett's eyes. How do you
read it?


Interesting question! Never looked at it quite that way before. I always kind of read it as, "What the hell have I Got myself into?"

Now that you mention ot, though, you may be right. When you think on it, although Crockett and Bowie might like each other all right, but Crockett's overall philosophy does seem to more closely mirror Travis'. I kind of get that from the conversation in the back room of the cantina; then later, after they destroy the "Long Tom" cannon, Crockett gets Bowie drunk and persuades him to stay. Why? Because, like Travis, Crockett believes it is important to hold the Alamo, and it can't be done without Bowie and his men. Only after the "frontal attack," when he finds that the garrison has been cut down by a third (??!!), does he reluctantly change his mind and agree to leave with Bowie and his men. Fortunately for Travis, he is able to talk them out of it.

One other possible reading: it may just be Wayne slipping up and letting his personal feelings about Widmark show. That's a real stretch, of course, since no matter what his detrators may say, Wayne was a competent actor who would have guarded against such a slip. Still, there are a lot of stories about their disagreements, and who knows, maybe they had had one right before shooting the scene. As I say, it's a stretch, but in a film known for bloopers and continuity errors...
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Seguin on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:13 am

Nefarious wrote:
MUSTANG wrote:Ned, according to the script, she didn't flub it. That's exactly the way the line read.

Thanks, John. Perhaps the 'reasoning' for the alteration of the name was that, should the letter ever fall into the wrong hands, saavy people would know right away it was a fake. But them Tennesseans? Crockett was counting on their slow wits to prevail.


Come on! Are you saying people like the Bee Keeper and the big feather fight guy (the guy they gave science fiction looking teeth :D ) were slow witted? :shock: :lol:
Thank God, it was´nt a movie about WW II with a letter being written to Otto Hitler. :mrgreen:
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby wconly on Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:20 am

To me Crockett was just thinking and considering how to deal with the two -- Bowie and Travis -- after all he (Crockett) was the peace maker of the grouping! Just my two cents! W>
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Davy on Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:29 am

He has that look that says ... "Seems like you fellars are lookin fer truble ..." :o :lol:

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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:53 am

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Destruction of The Big One.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:26 am

Nefarious wrote:Image
Did you ever notice the look of disdain that Crockett gives Bowie right after Bowie says,
"Travis says! I wouldn't take Travis' word that night was dark and day was light!" It's
almost as though Bowie has gone down a peg respect-wise in Crockett's eyes. How do you
read it?


I have always wondered about the scenes right after this one where Bowie and Crockett go over to the norhtwest corner where Travis and Dickinson are and Bowie and Travis begin to argue about the futility of staying. That's when Bowie again uses the "day is light, dark is night" statement indicating that Bowie considers Travis a liar. Right away, Travis gets angry and Dickinson comes down on Bowie for it and Travis says that's unforgivable. What I don't understand is that right before that, Travis questioned Bowies bravery and that of his men. He was calling them cowards. Now, both men had just publicly insulted each other but, Travis and Dickinson and to a lesser extent, Crockett, reacted to Bowies words like they were 10 times worse. To me, back then either insult would've been equally bad enough to provoke anger but, Travis insult just seemed to go by the wayside.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Seguin on Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:49 am

Good point, TexianAtHeartII! It does´nt make sense because Travis' insult was just as bad, maybe even worse.
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Re: Actual Scenes From The Alamo { 1960 } Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:43 pm

"The Fifth Veracruzanno Fusiliers. They're bivouacing about a mile south of our west bastion," Travis says as he
watches a line of men 100 yards to the north from the northwest corner of the fort! This has got to be a James
Edward Grant silly. A mile south of the Alamo by historic directions would place the "bivuac" about 3/4 mile
behind the Bexar sets. Anyway, wouldn't "a mile south of our west bastion" be the same as a mile south of the
whole fort? Or perhaps the Alamo had a rather large outwork that The History Channel hasn't discovered yet.
How did the defenders get to the "west bastion" without going through the Mexican camp? :roll:
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Seguin on Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:39 am

Anyway, wouldn't "a mile south of our west bastion" be the same as a mile south of the whole fort?


Of course! It´s just another blooper in the manuscript. :D
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:07 pm

Seguin wrote:
Anyway, wouldn't "a mile south of our west bastion" be the same as a mile south of the whole fort?


Of course! It´s just another blooper in the manuscript. :D

I think the important thing here is that he SOUNDED like he knew what he was talking about. If you can spew nonsense and
get people to believe in you by the sound of your voice, you have won. Look at Hitler.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:48 pm

Nefarious wrote:
Seguin wrote:
Anyway, wouldn't "a mile south of our west bastion" be the same as a mile south of the whole fort?


Of course! It´s just another blooper in the manuscript. :D

I think the important thing here is that he SOUNDED like he knew what he was talking about. If you can spew nonsense and
get people to believe in you by the sound of your voice, you have won. Look at Hitler.


True for real life and true for movies in the fifties. We must keep reminding ourselves that scripts were by orders written for the eleven-year-old mentality at that time -- for the masses. You could hand those kids anything -- and hear we sit. :lol:
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Davy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:22 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:True for real life and true for movies in the fifties. We must keep reminding ourselves that scripts were by orders written for the eleven-year-old mentality at that time -- for the masses. You could hand those kids anything -- and hear we sit. :lol:


Who you callin the masses Rich? Why ... I could kill you Bowie! :twisted:

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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:04 pm

Davy wrote:
RLC-GTT wrote:True for real life and true for movies in the fifties. We must keep reminding ourselves that scripts were by orders written for the eleven-year-old mentality at that time -- for the masses. You could hand those kids anything -- and hear we sit. :lol:


Who you callin the masses Rich? Why ... I could kill you Bowie! :twisted:

Davy


I wasn't specifically meaning your mass. :D
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby caplock on Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:11 pm

Nefarious wrote:
Seguin wrote:
Anyway, wouldn't "a mile south of our west bastion" be the same as a mile south of the whole fort?


Of course! It´s just another blooper in the manuscript. :D

I think the important thing here is that he SOUNDED like he knew what he was talking about. If you can spew nonsense and
get people to believe in you by the sound of your voice, you have won. Look at Hitler.


Another example of this comes in the scene where Travis and Dickinson are standing over the main gate, watching Santa Anna arrive with the "main body." Travis: "have the men fed in relays. Full issue of ammunition!"

That, for me, raises a couple of questions. First, how many men would make up each relay? Second, how do you give a full issue to men who have every kind of weapon under the sun? Even my eleven-year-old mentality at the time thought that one was pretty weird.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby gh1836 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:08 pm

Well I guess I'm about 11 years old! :lol: I wish. Anyway I have to admit I never thought much about that line and now that
it's brought up it is a funny way to put it. Maybe if it was Tennesseans who made that statement it would have been "They're
setting up camp about a mile west of here". The line as delivered has a very military feel to it. I guess that was all that register in my mind.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:26 pm

gh1836 wrote:Maybe if it was Tennesseans who made that statement it would have been "They're setting up camp about a mile west of here".


No, a Tennessean would have shouted, "Look!" :lol:
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:32 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:
gh1836 wrote:Maybe if it was Tennesseans who made that statement it would have been "They're setting up camp about a mile west of here".


No, a Tennessean would have shouted, "Look!" :lol:

And then, "Them uniforms are sure loud!
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby gh1836 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:10 pm

:lol:
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby batjacdon on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:39 pm

Rich,
I think that was the 6th Veracruzanno Fusiliers...by that time in the movie the 5th were already at the Cantina.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:26 pm

batjacdon wrote:Rich,
I think that was the 6th Veracruzanno Fusiliers...by that time in the movie the 5th were already at the Cantina.


Boy are you right! My inner ear must be mis-remembering. LOL. Considering though that there wasn't even a 1st. Veracruzanno Fusiliers, it is probably a moot point. :lol:
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:49 pm

The fusiliers were having a fifth in the Cantina? :o
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby batjacdon on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:26 pm

I think the 5th Fusiliers were working on their fifth / fifth in the Cantina by then.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:03 am

Travis too. That's why he couldn't figure out what direction they were from the north wall!
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:10 am

When the Fusiliers were marching into San Antonio, one of them saw the Cantina and told one of the others, "cantina,
lo que quiero que pienso hacerlo"? and the reply was, "hacerlo".

Take a guess as to the translation.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:11 am

TexianAtHeartII wrote:When the Fusiliers were marching into San Antonio, one of them saw the Cantina and told one of the others, "cantina,
lo que quiero que pienso hacerlo"? and the reply was, "hacerlo".

Take a guess as to the translation.


You can't fool me. It means exactly the same thing in English.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:50 am

RLC-GTT wrote:
TexianAtHeartII wrote:When the Fusiliers were marching into San Antonio, one of them saw the Cantina and told one of the others, "cantina,
lo que quiero que pienso hacerlo"? and the reply was, "hacerlo".

Take a guess as to the translation.


You can't fool me. It means exactly the same thing in English.


It do!
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby quincey morris on Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:30 pm

So, what part of Tennessee was that soldado from?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:57 pm

Think we could get Rudy to say that one?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:02 pm

Boy, wouldn't that be the ultimate "in joke" in an Alamo movie? Have the soldados say that in Spanish with no subtitles and see how long it would take before somebody got it. :lol:
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Alamo John UK on Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:46 pm

I was going through some screen shots the other day and noticed something I had never picked up on before.
In the scene just before Pat Wayne gets run down by the lancers we see him up on the cannon mound, this is
just after Travis's death scene, is that Travis's body lying at the bottom of the cannon ramp by the north wall ?
if so, what a testament to the continuity unit or did Wayne have several cameras rolling at the same time ?
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby MUSTANG on Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:32 pm

Interesting observation. Wayne had 6 Mitchell cameras filming the final battle at various points around the compound so as to get different POVs. Note that immediately after the scene in which Wayne yells, "Throw up a barricade", they cut to the NW corner of the compound. At the tail end of that scene you see lancers riding outside the north wall moving from left to right entering the breech. Then cut to Patrick Wayne's POV. And you see the same lancers entering the compound. A continous sequence. However, Just my opinion, while you make a good point, I wonder if they would have left Harvey lying on the ground so close to where the horses were galloping through. The final assault was filmed over several days/weeks. Hence, different cloud formations, shadows, background activity, etc. As we know, certain sequences were also filmed out of order. Multiple takes, etc. A good example of this is Patrick Wayne's death scene. Check out the background activity closely; Runs down from the flagpole mound, shoots a pistol, stabs a rider with his sword and then is run down. In the first two activities, notice the background. Lots of defenders on the West wall, shooting, Mexicans climbing scaling ladders, but as he lays on the ground, mysteriously, everyone disappears. And now a roaring fire is blazing on a roof where moments before, there was none. Of course, we know there were at least two takes of the Mexican horseman getting shot off the horse as Dean Smith shared that story with us. Also, note the background as Pactrick is getting run down. You see a two defenders under the blazing roof; one kneeling and shooting, one standing and moving backwards, ready to shoot. Cut to Wayne's death, cut to West wall, defender shoots rifle, wall explodes. Continous action. Pretty impressive.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby NefariousNed on Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:17 pm

Well, this is interesting, to say the least. Could Travis' "body" not have been a dummy? They had some pretty unconvincing dummies get
exploded over the main gate and at close-up at that . Having a dummy "stand-in" for the fallen Harvey does not seem so far-fetched,
especially for such a long range shot. And how do you explain those other "bodies" around Travis'? If they were stuntmen, would they've
not been just as vulnerable in getting trampled as Harvey himself would have?

For all those bodies we see in the distance, I'm still disappointed in the Alamo aftermath scene where Mrs. Dickinson, Lisa, and Happy Sam
are shown exiting the smouldering ruins. I mean at that "last barricade" cannon alone, about 50 Mexican soldiers went down in a swathe. But
when Mrs. D. and company proceed through the plaza, there's scarcely a one. The bodies you DO see are about 50 feet apart and most are
Texan. The plaza should've been glutted with bodies, like in LAST COMMAND, another G-rated movie.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby zapadore on Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:22 pm

Save for Crockett's demise a very bloodless battle.....
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Alamo John UK on Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:23 pm

I would think Ned is probably spot on with the dummies thing, in which case the continuity guys should take credit and as John F.
mentioned earlier there was some pretty impressive non stop stuff being filmed from different P.O.V 's throughout the final assault,
they are all there to be seen.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:58 pm

MUSTANG wrote:...However, Just my opinion, while you make a good point, I wonder if they would have left Harvey lying on the ground so close to where the horses were galloping through.....


I have lots to say about all this in regard to filming procedure and production technique (beware) and no time to say it at the moment. Just one detail, Mustang is right. Motion picture production protocol: if you can't see a stars face and recognize him, IT ISN'T THE STAR! That is what picture doubles and stunt doubles are on the payroll for. You protect your star as you would protect the money in your wallet, because that's what he is. You send him to his trailer or release him for the day, if a double will in any way suffice. Thus, that is absolutely not Laurence Harvey waaaaaay out there in deep background where you wouldn't even be able to tell if it were a dummy -- even the dumb dummies Batjac had available.
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Re: Actual Scenes From THE ALAMO (1960) Film

Postby Alamo John UK on Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:10 pm

In my original post I didn't mean to imply that it was actually Harvey lying there, just that it was "Travis" and that it was nice "attention to detail" sort of stuff, however the possibility did occur to me that it may have been the end of that particular scene caught from the cannon mound, but after John and Rich's logical and knowledgeable input, it is now beyond doubt that it is indeed a dummy lying where Travis fell.

Still a nice detail though !
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