THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Discussion On All Aspects Of The Film.

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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Seguin on Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:40 am

Great! Thanks a lot...
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby alamojim on Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:07 pm

I was watching a program on the History Channel last night about the Library of Congress and it mentioned that they have almost every movie made in the US. It got me to thinking if they might have the Director's Cut of the Waynemo, possibly even with deleted scenes that didn't make it into the
DC. Does anyone have any experience with the Library that might shed some light on whether or not they have a copy, and whether or not it would
be possible for a copy to be made for release?
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Colonel Davy on Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:34 pm

The Library of Congress was researched by Ashley Ward many years ago during his search for the roadshow print. All documentation from the Library indicated that the print length was 161minutes. I don't remember for sure, but I thought he actually went to the Library and viewed the print.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Travis247 on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:15 pm

Had some great discussions with Mr. Ward while purchasing some of his Alamo stills to help in the building of my diorama,
very interesting to speak to. This was around 2001 or 2002, not positve. Was looking for shots of the rear of the compound behind the long barracks. Even contacted Rich at that time at Alamo Village.

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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Colonel Davy on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:47 pm

My wife and I spent many a wonderful time visiting with Ashley and I, too, acquired many stills which helped the artist, Robert Averill, in the creation my Alamo models. The first time I met him was back in 1986 during our first visit to San Antonio.
The rest, as they say, is history!
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:30 am

The "deposite material" required by the Library of Congress must always be updated with any redo. Thus, the 161 minute version. They probably chucked the 192 minute 70 mm. version when it was resubmitted. That would make sense -- in a way that is totally nonsensical to us. :roll:
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:16 pm

Congress has ruined many a good movies. :mrgreen: :(
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby alamocentral on Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:29 pm

Dear Friends: In case this is news to anybody, there is a bootleg DVD of The Alamo (192 minutes long) available on Ebay from time to time. If you don't have a laserdisc player, this will enable you to review the laser version (minus roadshow music) on a DVD player. It comes out of Hong Kong, and appeared several years after the laserdisc. It's not perfect, but it does have all the visuals.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:25 pm

Thanks Ashley. I do have this Hong Kong steal and agree on all points. Good for reference; not good for the film-art-oriented buffs -- no overture, no entr'acte, no walk-out music. I also find the sound reproduction (apparently the Hong Kong transfer from the O.K. laserdisc tracks) to be annoying and full of phasing problems.

I still feel that the laserdisc "directors cut" (yes, I know, not truly a directors cut since the director himself authorized the extractions) version is the best for overall content and presentation (except for having to change the records :roll: ) and the 161 minute official MGM/UA DVD is the best for color, although the stereo does wonky things on my 2-channel system (sound movement often goes the opposite direction from visual movement!!!!!), although this seems to work O.K. on a better system. All in all, color restoration accepted, the 2-cassette VHS "directors cut" is still the one I show people to give them the best overall experience of the original movie.

I might add that the current MGM/UA DVD version has altered scenes with an extremely annoying and unnerving re-edit of the fine-cutting of the battle scenes which also devastates the flow and musical integrity of Tiomkin's score. :evil:
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby alamocentral on Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:56 pm

Dear Friends: The laser disc was not mastered entirely from the 70mm print David and I found in Toronto. It is a patchwork quilt of 35mm and 70mm materials. The quality is very uneven between the two sources. As of this time, the money has not been provided to restore the film. When...and IF said money turns up, the plan is to restore the film to the 161 minute version. For the DVD and Blu Ray, they will include the poor quality footage from the 70mm print as a supplement.

As I said several days ago, the elements are in such bad shape, that the technology does not exist to restore the original version. Even the cut negative (161 minutes) is in terrible shape. The mastering used for the laser disc would not translate well to the Blu Ray format, nor today's DVD minimum standards of quality. MGM/UA, by way of Sony, and now Twentieth Century Fox have not been willing to allocate the funds necessary to restore the film as described above.

I think they ponied up $250,000. The project needs a minimum of $1.3 to 1.5 million. When Robert Harris asked for donations, MGM/UA suggested that he stop. The existing laser disc is not an exact facsimile of the Todd-AO print. It went through some subtle reediting to blend the 70mm sections with the 35mm materials; it is cropped quite noticeably; and it is missing the Todd-AO credit. The laser disc uses the title sequence from the 35mm general release print, rather than the roadshow version.

There seems to be a consensus that fans would rather have a DVD of the laser disc...than nothing at all. The powers that be aren't going to do this. Until or unless the film (not the video) is restored, it is unlikely that a new DVD or Blu Ray will be forthcoming. Remember, the film itself, has NEVER been restored. The deteriorating 65mm camera negative has never had any work done on it. The protection masters are warped and faded, as well. The mag oxide is or has flaked off the tape (for the sound). Film is a natural product, like fruits and vegetables, and they don't last forever. As Wayne Enterprises and Batjac have nothing to do with the film (for almost 50 years since they sold their rights), writing, phoning, or emailing them will get you nowhere. It is a matter of dollars and cents...and MGM/UA (bankrupt) does not see any potential in this title. Afterall, the only people who want the film restored... haven't ponied up the money to do so.

I'm sorry to rain on your parade,
Ashley
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Doc on Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:15 pm

News as sad as death.
Thank you for sharing.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby alamocentral on Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:22 pm

Dear Nefarious Ned, I have noticed several of your postings which include frame enlargements from an original 70mm print. Do the frames themselves appear pink, or are those photographs of the frames. The reason I ask, is that the frames I have are faded (even approaching a sepia tone), but not pink. In addition, my 70mm print is far from pink. It is faded by comparison to the 35mm Technicolor prints, but has far more color than the loose 70mm frames I have seen. I have about 25 loose frames, and one three foot strip. What's more, the Toronto print had lots of color in it still (but that was 20 years ago...and the print is now ruined). I've screened a 70mm print twice, now, and my 35mm print on two occasions. We've also screened David's print twice, I think. There was nothing pink about these screenings.
Happy Trails,
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:33 pm

I believe what you are referring to is a photograph of the frames from a magazine article about the restoration of the film, Ashley. The only real film I have is a 16mm flat television print. While that is starting to go red, the blues and greens are still quite good in it. I always threaten to break it out and show it whenever anyone comes to visit me, but we never seem to get around to it.

Oh, I do have some 8x10 prints of still photographs from Joseph Musso's collection. The negatives on those had gone red. Whenever I post one on the forum, Mo usually colour-corrects it for me.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby alamocentral on Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:50 am

Yes, I still have a 16mm trailer, as well as two 35mm trailers. Before I acquired the larger gauge prints, I had two 16mm scope prints. I made some frame enlargements of these...before the advent of letterboxed home video products. My 16mm examples were Eastman Color, and quite a letdown from Technicolor. I even showed a 16mm print at my neighborhood elementary school (in the 1970s). I think that one of my 16mm prints went to Laurence Golbey. I used to think that 16mm collecting was great, but home video was so much sharper (and better color), that it became obsolete.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:00 am

I talked Happy into getting a 16 mm. scope print -- and the projector and lens to show it with -- back in the early 90's. I would guess it was one of the UA-16 prints because Films Incorporated had only flat prints to my knowledge. The interesting thing about the print was that, while it had held its color balance pretty well, the opening five minutes or so was "replacement footage" that was so red you wanted to tear it out. My point is that *all film stocks are not created equal.* Some color shift very quickly. Some stay locked in. I am remembering that Papa Eastman had a major catastrophe with films (both 16 and 35 that they printed for a period in the sixties) because the stock was inferior and color-shifted very early. Some movies do not even exist anymore because of that debacle. How does this relate? I dunno. Just thought I'd mention it.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:04 am

alamocentral wrote:I used to think that 16mm
collecting was great, but home video was so much sharper (and better color), that it became obsolete.
Ashley

...and WAIT till somebody finally figures out how to get a digitally corrected video master for Blu-Ray. After seeing the one
transitional scene from The Alamo in the Blu-Ray version of HTWWW, I long for it to happen. :cry:
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:14 am

As for the 16mm flat TV print and my gorgeous 35mm trailer, I save them as more of a part of Waynamo history, than for their
view-ability. In 2006, Rob Jones and Cliff Andersen showed my 35mm trailer at the Reye Theater in Hondo.

Now I'll stop going off-topic.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:00 am

Ashame, isn't it? That a film of this stature has been treated so shabbily like a red headed stepchild while far lesser films get the
royalty treatment. Shows where the current studio heads have their heads.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby alamocentral on Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:13 am

Dear Friends, The reason for the current condition of the Alamo elements is not just simply neglect. This was a United Artists release. UA never had a studio. It existed to release independent productions. Back in the 60s and the 70s, nobody thought there was any future for these films. When Batjac sold their rights to the film back to UA, the 65mm camera neg, protection masters, interpositives, AND THE 65MM TRIMS went to UA. They discarded the latter. When Technicolor closed its domestic dye transfer facility (1974), they told everybody to come get their matrices. Nobody wanted this material. The big studios have always kept their negatives and prints in pretty good shape (except Universal). Spartacus was not re-stored to its full-length (202 minutes) because Universal threw out the neg trims in the 1980s. MGM/UA has taken pretty good care of the 65mm negative. It has been in a salt mine in Henderson, Kansas. However, their downright bad treatment of the Toronto 70mm print is a mystery. It had been kept in safe storage (Calgary) for 40 years. MGM/UA ruined it within one year of its return to California.

At least we have an imperfect record of the missing scenes. Films such as Greed, The Wedding March, and The Magnificent Ambersons no longer exist in their original form. Even recent films, like The Great Race, The Hallelujah Trail, and The Great Gatsby are severely truncated from their roadshow versions. The movie database doesn't even list these latter films as having been longer. We were extremely lucky to locate that 70mm print at all.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby alamocentral on Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:46 pm

Dear Friends, I have just exchanged emails with Robert Harris (the film restorer). The effort to restore The Alamo (even the short version)...is "DEAD IN THE WATER". If anyone sees an advertisment for a 70mm screening of the film, it will be the short version (like my print). They talk about showing such a print at the Karlsruhe Film Festival (it is not complete). I'm sorry to dowse your hopes!
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby AlamoMo on Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:51 pm

Well Ashley it has been expected such news for a long time now !!!!!! :(

I admire Robert's hard work and dedication to date he should get
some sort of award at least for all his effort and hard work bless
him.

" News Sadder Than Death "

Regards and thank you for the update

Mo
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Doc on Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:00 pm

alamocentral wrote:Dear Friends, I have just exchanged emails with Robert Harris (the film restorer). The effort to restore The Alamo (even the short version)...is "DEAD IN THE WATER". If anyone sees an advertisment for a 70mm screening of the film, it will be the short version (like my print). They talk about showing such a print at the Karlsruhe Film Festival (it is not complete). I'm sorry to dowse your hopes!
Ashley


AlamoMo wrote:Well Ashley it has been expected such news for a long time now !!!!!! :(

I admire Robert's hard work and dedication to date he should get
some sort of award at least for all his effort and hard work bless
him.

" News Sadder Than Death "

Regards and thank you for the update

Mo




Glad that I still have a working laser disc player. I just can't watch the film without those rediscovered scenes.
TCM shows the longer version. Next time it's broadcast in Hi Def, I'll record it to DVD as a backup.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:20 pm

To lovers of this film, this is devastating news, indeed. Look at all the posts and views in this thread alone, as we waited and hoped
for a restoration of THE ALAMO. Well, there's another door closed smack dab in our faces. :( :x
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Wanted: Director's Cut Duke's "Alamo"

Postby bill chemerka on Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:47 pm

An Alamo Society member is looking to purchase "the Hong Kong Director's Cut DVD" of John Wayne's The Alamo.

If anyone has any info, please be kind enough to provide it.

Thanks.

All the best.
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Re: Wanted: Director's Cut Duke's "Alamo"

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:51 pm

IMO, it is awful. Seems to be pirated from the laserdisc. Cuts off the overture, intermission music, entracte and walk-out music. Contains video scanning transfer artifacts (having gone from one format to another) like an occasional moire pattern. Color is indeed inferior to the official 161 minute MGM/UA DVD release. Chapter search is very minimal. Sound and stereo are not too bad, but I've never tried it out on a good system.
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Re: Wanted: Director's Cut Duke's "Alamo"

Postby AlamoMo on Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:10 pm

" I 100% Totally Agree With Your Comments Rich "

I remember when I watched my copy that I bought on E Bay a few
years ago well to cut a long story short I threw it in the dustbin a
real total waste of money

I apologise for the " Negative Comments " Bill but thats what I
thought of it

Regards

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Re: Wanted: Director's Cut Duke's "Alamo"

Postby bustedluck on Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:17 am

I was the proud owner of the vhs version (with the blue cover instead of gold) but my vcr ate the 2nd part (the finale and the behind the scenes interviews with Happy and Chuck and Ken and and... (forgive me tears are swelling up and I can't see to type anymore.)
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Director's Cut of Duke's "Alamo" for sale?

Postby bill chemerka on Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:34 am

An Alamo Society member from Connecticut wishes to purchase a copy of the "Hong Kong Director's Cut DVD" of Duke's Alamo.

If anyone has any relevant information, please be kind enough to contact me so that I can forward it to him.

Thanks in advance.

All the best.
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Re: Wanted: Director's Cut Duke's "Alamo"

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:57 am

I tried to find my DVD from Hong Kong so that I at least could give you alleged distributor information, but I can't even find it. Perhaps it was enctypted with some code that caused it to self-destruct after several years of being totally ignored. :lol:
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Re: Wanted: Director's Cut Duke's "Alamo"

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:34 am

I have a copy that I bought off Ebay some years back. So that's a place to begin a search. Also, since I've converted all my players over to Blu-ray, some or all won't even play it, don't remember which. But I still have a couple of regular dvd players that will play it. Like Rich said, it's not the best quality, picture wise, but it's passable and the sound is ok.
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Laserdisc

Postby DocWylie on Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:50 pm

Well, I decided to take a chance and buy a laserdisc on eBay of the "Restored Original Director's Cut". Just couldn't resist. If it turns out to be junk, I'm only out five bucks. If nothing else, the cover art will look nice hanging on the wall in my Alamo room, or I can sit it next to my VHS copy of the director's cut.

The fly in the buttermilk is I don't own a laserdisc player and don't know anyone around town who does! :lol:
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Re: Laserdisc

Postby MartyB on Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:04 pm

Yer kinda like the fella that bought the hood ornament 'cuz he liked the car!!!!!
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Re: Laserdisc

Postby Doc on Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:24 pm

You made a smart purchase. The disc is a big improvement over VHS. It also has the longer version of the Huberman documentary. I kept my old laser disc player just so I can watch this version. You can probably find a cheap disc player at a used record store or video store. It's worth it because I don't believe that the director's cut will ever be released in Blu Ray.
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Re: Laserdisc

Postby DocWylie on Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:22 pm

Doc wrote:You made a smart purchase. The disc is a big improvement over VHS. It also has the longer version of the Huberman documentary. I kept my old laser disc player just so I can watch this version. You can probably find a cheap disc player at a used record store or video store. It's worth it because I don't believe that the director's cut will ever be released in Blu Ray.


My son has some sort of gizmo that can be used to copy VHS tapes to DVD, which I'm going to try to use to make a copy I can actually watch since I no longer have a functioning VHS player. I did this with my old tape of Viva Max. The picture quality isn't the best, but it's better than nothing!

As for the laserdisc... I've been shopping used ones on eBay. If I can find a reliable one ( :roll: ) perhaps I'll be able to watch my new acquisition.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby TexianAtHeartII on Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:44 am

I made a DVD copy of my VHS copy of the directors cut using a DVD recorder and just using RCA cables to hook the DVD recorder to the VCR. I ended up using two discs so I could get everything, including the opening music, entr'acte, and exit music on it. And I wanted it on the highest picture quality available, which was the 2 hour play or SP mode. It came out just fine. PQ is very good.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:44 pm

I did the same from the Laser on two dvd discs breaking at Intermission. It's not bad for a 2nd generation. The sound transfer was terrific. I am planning on doing it again as I have a enhancer to help.
It seems you can copy Lasers pretty easy.
I have only a couple left. "20.000 Leagues.....and "Swiss Family Robinson" I keep them just because of the value down the road. Disney also has no plans for a Blu-ray of either. So that's three films people want but can' get.
It seems like every film Wayne made is on Blu-ray and yet nothing for "The Alamo". Don't make sense to me.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby NefariousNed on Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:49 pm

The discussion of "The Alamo On Blu-ray" has been moved to "The Alamo On Blu-ray" thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1073&p=125305#p125305
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Pudman on Fri May 02, 2014 7:03 pm

I still watch my laserdisc of the "Director's Cut". Watched it during HHD's. The player I bought in '92 is still working. I was surprised that some TV shows (Star Trek: The Next Generation) look better than the DVD versions.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby NefariousNed on Fri May 30, 2014 3:59 am

Having the Director's Cut Laser Disc version is a hard price to pay for possibly losing the film itself forever as a result. Because that's what's happening. THE ALAMO (1960)
is becoming a lost film.
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Re: THE ALAMO (1960): The Director's Cut

Postby Seguin on Fri May 30, 2014 4:05 am

NefariousNed wrote:Having the Director's Cut Laser Disc version is a hard price to pay for possibly losing the film itself forever as a result. Because that's what's happening. THE ALAMO (1960)
is becoming a lost film.


True, but it´s better than nothing and it looks like the restoration of the movie will never happen since it´s so deteriorated.
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