The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Discussion On All Aspects Of The Film.

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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby garyzaboly on Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:34 pm

I just hope whoever does restore Wayne's ALAMO has the good sense to keep the colors as they were, and not try to "modernize" it to the dark, sickly yellowish and greenish look so often seen in today's digitized movies.

When they restored SPARTACUS back in the 1990s, they made Kirk Douglas' originally grey-blue tunic into a green-grey tunic. Now most people wouldn't give a hoot about this change, but for me it changed the entire appearance of much of the film. All the restorers had to do was to refer to old color photos of the film, or earlier film or taped copies, to get it right.

How dare anyone change the colors in a restoration? Sacrilege!
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:07 pm

garyzaboly wrote:All the restorers had to do was to refer to old color photos of the film, or earlier film or taped copies, to get it right.


...which are usually also severely color-shifted and reduced contrast. In revamping Gone With The Wind, Turner went to John Cameron Menzies' original concept paintings and the costume designer's renderings to restore it.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:09 pm

garyzaboly wrote:How dare anyone change the colors in a restoration? Sacrilege!


I couldn't agree more. The same with aspect ratio for me, and TV prints and videos did it until DVD's.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Seguin on Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:31 am

You can always see if a black and white movie has been restored as a color movie. The colors usually looks very odd, especially the green color, I think.
I´ve got a DVD of Wayne´s "Angel And The Badman" movie which contains both the original black and white movie, plus the restored color version, and I must say I prefer the black and white version. What a crazy idea of adding colors to a black and white movie, but they´ll probably sell a lot of copies of those "restored with colors" movies.
I think it was Bette Davies who complained about such a movie which had colored her hair blond, despite the fact her hair never was blond.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:45 am

Seguin wrote:You can always see if a black and white movie has been restored as a color movie. The colors usually looks very odd, especially the green color, I think.
I´ve got a DVD of Wayne´s "Angel And The Badman" movie which contains both the original black and white movie, plus the restored color version, and I must say I prefer the black and white version. What a crazy idea of adding colors to a black and white movie, but they´ll probably sell a lot of copies of those "restored with colors" movies.
I think it was Bette Davies who complained about such a movie which had colored her hair blond, despite the fact her hair never was blond.


Jimmy Stewart among many others lobbied strongly against Ted Turner's "colorization" process. It's more than just a sleazy way to get a product marketed to young people who probably wouldn't buy it if it were black-and-white. It is a bastardization of an art form. Because it was necessary to film in black and white in the early years, cinematographers developed a very sophistocated technique of lighting in order to separate foreground characters from background since color separation was not possible. This attained a level of high art with such classics as Citizen Kane, How Green Was My Valley, It's a Wonderful Life, and many others. When a film with such sophistocated lighting is colorized artificially, the powerful effect of its lighting is minimized. So the issue with those who appreciate the art of film was that it was like putting graffiti on the Mona Lisa! Don't put millions of copies out there that have been *altered* to placate the public's ignorance of the art. Create properly restored versions in their original form and educate the public as to the quality of that form. Far more responsible in preserving our national cultural heritage.

Fortunately, Turner began to redeem himself by doing useful things with colorization -- like restoring a very faded and color-shifted Gone With The Wind by recolorizing all the costumes and sets based on the artists' renderings which had not faded. Thus, he helped to preserve film art instead of commercializing it.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Seguin on Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:44 am

I fully agree, Rich! Black and white movies were meant to be seen in black and white. Imagine, "Citizen Kane", with colors. All the lightning and shadow work would be almost gone and the movie would leave a different impression on the viewer which was never intended. A bastardization is the correct word indeed.

Restoring a color movie like, "Gone With The Wind", is a completely different matter. If it´s done in the right way, then it´s a great idea.
I guess they´ll have to do something like that with the Director´s Cut of the Waynamo since the film seems to have become pink and the colors gone.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby garyzaboly on Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:01 pm

The only colorized movie I ever liked was the 1934 TREASURE ISLAND. It gave the old film an N.C. Wyeth-like storybook feel, and heightened the depths of field in each shot. But of course I fully agree, it's an unnecessary process, like gilding a lily.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby AlamoMo on Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:56 pm

Well I don't envy " Mr Harris " and the task he has.

To give you some idea below are some photos of the film stock
from " The Alamo ".

1960 Original Colour 70mm Film Strip:

Image

Image

Today this is what the print more than
likely looks like:

Image

Image
Do This Mean What I Think It Do ??, " It Do "
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Davy on Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:47 pm

Kinda like ourselves ain't it ... faded with time I reckon! :o :x :D

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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby mrbassbone on Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:52 pm

But YOU still look like a bedraggled Mule...LOL Then again, I don't have much room to talk these days.

Davy wrote:Kinda like ourselves ain't it ... faded with time I reckon! :o :x :D

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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Davy on Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:28 pm

mrbassbone wrote:
Davy wrote:Kinda like ourselves ain't it ... faded with time I reckon! :o :x :D

Davy
But YOU still look like a bedraggled Mule...LOL Then again, I don't have much room to talk these days.



Beauty is overrated ... :o :lol:

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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:36 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby findem_killem on Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:31 pm

If all resourses are available for restoration of Wayne's Alamo, then how long would it take to complete?
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Seguin on Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:14 am

It looks like Wayne has become a pinko. Apparently, he could´nt hide his true sentiments forever. :lol:


Image
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby garyzaboly on Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:20 pm

Seguin wrote:It looks like Wayne has become a pinko. Apparently, he could´nt hide his true sentiments forever. :lol:


Image



I own some actual 70mm sections of celluloid film footage of the 1956 AROUND THE WORLD IN 80 DAYS, also filmed in Todd-AO, and I have to say that they too have faded to just about this same pinkish level. A sad commentary on the ephemeral nature of film.

But the question must also be asked: if everything is converted into digital format, who can say that future generations will have the technology to save THAT format---or that the ravages of time might even break up or even completely destroy digitized images?
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:42 pm

garyzaboly wrote:
Seguin wrote:It looks like Wayne has become a pinko. Apparently, he could´nt hide his true sentiments forever. :lol:


Image



I own some actual 70mm sections of celluloid film footage of the 1956 AROUND THE WORLD IN 80 DAYS, also filmed in Todd-AO, and I have to say that they too have faded to just about this same pinkish level. A sad commentary on the ephemeral nature of film.

But the question must also be asked: if everything is converted into digital format, who can say that future generations will have the technology to save THAT format---or that the ravages of time might even break up or even completely destroy digitized images?


This is the argument (with which I totally agree) of film preservationists. The only real way to archive valuable films is on film. Nothing else will be viewable or showable 100 years from now. Papa Eastman assures the industry that there has been a quantum leap in film longevity. I have heard that current color print stock emulsions will remain stable (no color shift) for a shelf-life of 500 years (not proven yet). So, what Harris has been trying to do is the ONLY secure way to archive The Alamo for future generations. Doesn't have anything to do with selling the film or creating the world's greatest hoot for Alamo buffs. It has to do with nothing less than preserving our national cultural heritage.


If I've got it all in my brain, the plan is to use all the extant elements of the movie in order to reassemble a frame-for-frame accurate 70 mm. internegative with modern color restoration using high end digital technology. That internegative would be on the film stock with the longest shelf-life possible. Printing negatives could be created from it for printing distribution copies as well as a digital master for DVD's and BlueRay -- and whatever format is invented in the next five minutes. The film master could then be placed in optimum vault storage conditions for the future.

Robert Harris felt that an acceptable 70 mm. release could be prepared of the 161-minute version, but that -- for the director's cut -- the available materials of the necessary quality could only render a pristine home video version. All this was only if he could do it before the originating elements lost all restorable color and/or fell apart physically. I do not have a clue if that deadline has passed or if it is still possible.

Again, a film master is the only way to archive. With that -- a visual optical image that can be re-photographed with any new technology -- it can be reproduced and enjoyed forever (and a day).
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby garyzaboly on Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:40 pm

Sounds unbelieveable, Rich---500-year shelf-life! But something we can hope for! Not only for THE ALAMO but for all films worthy of preservation.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby garyzaboly on Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:41 pm

And if they can't get the old color back they'll have to change some of the dialogue, like, "That's the worst-dressed army I ever saw."
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:08 pm

garyzaboly wrote:And if they can't get the old color back they'll have to change some of the dialogue, like, "That's the worst-dressed army I ever saw."


"Technicolor clothes don't make a fightin' man."
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:09 pm

"They're just off ten years trying to restore this movie. They're fightin' men."


Variation from The Last Command: "They not only got us out-numbered but out-pinked." (DISSOLVE TO) "Won't it be pretty when it's restored?"
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby garyzaboly on Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:25 pm

RLC-GTT wrote:"They're just off ten years trying to restore this movie. They're fightin' men."


Variation from The Last Command: "They not only got us out-numbered but out-pinked." (DISSOLVE TO) "Won't it be pretty when it's restored?"



"Lord above, that is some pink tree!"
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:07 pm

"What's that?!" "I dunno, but it's sure PINK."
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:48 am

You could strain a thousand frames and not find any pinker. They may be bathed in emulsion, but they all look pink to me.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Davy on Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:11 am

If you do not leave I ... will chastize you until you are pink! :o :D

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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:27 am

Just think, Davy, in the current uncorrected print of the Alamo, Travis' H.Q. is PINKER than the Pink Hump Hotel!!!!! :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Seguin on Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:38 am

Pink… I like the sound of the word. Means people can live pink, talk pink, go or come, buy or sell, be drunk or pink —
however they choose. Some words give you a feeling. Pink is one of those words that makes me tight in the throat.
Same tightness a man gets when his pink baby takes his first step or… his first baby shaves and makes his first pink
sound like a man. Some words can give you a pink feeling that make your heart warm. Pink is one of those words. :D
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:45 am

Where's Jim Bowie?
He's changed colour sir.
Changed colour? By Gawd, if you mean pink, you say pink!
He's pink, Sir!
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Davy on Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:14 am

W'all ... a man won't get pink drinkin this stuff! :o :lol:

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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Seguin on Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:35 am

Parson : I give thanks for the time and the place.
Smitty : The time and place, Parson ?
Parson : The time to live pink and the place to die pink. That’s all any man gets. No more, no less. Fire the signal, boy.

Smitty : Colonel, what do P-I-N-K spell ?
Bob : Pink… Do it mean what I think it do ?
“It do” : It do.

Crockett : Let’s wet our whistles. Words are dusty.
Travis : I don’t pink.
Crockett : Not ever ?
Travis : No.
Crockett : I’ve heard of such… Well, spread your pinkies, Travis.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby NefariousNed on Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:39 am

:lol: I pink this tangent has gone about as far as it can go.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Seguin on Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:44 am

You pink so? :D
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby garyzaboly on Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:53 am

Cracking up here! :lol:
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:50 pm

Just saw this on DVD Planet pre-order. "The Pinkamo". Edited, pan and scan, unrestored. Just they way it wasn't meant to
be seen. I,ve ordered my copy :mrgreen: Wait a minute, I already have that copy. :oops:
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby gtj222 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:14 pm

Do it mean what I PINK it do?
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:24 pm

Now you've done it! " They're at it again!" :roll:
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby whiterabbitt83 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:19 pm

so there is no news yet when the robert harris reconstruction will be done, i plan on buying the blu ray,
there are 3 virstions being made, the blu ray witch will be the roadshow the dvd and the 70 mill that
will be shown in san antonio at the alamo
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby MUSTANG on Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:25 pm

Where did you hear about a Blu Ray version of The Alamo?
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby RLC-GTT on Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:05 pm

Yeah, where? And how recently?
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby whiterabbitt83 on Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:20 pm

here it is http://www.in70mm.com/news/2009/the_alamo/index.htm
The work involved will take about 10 to 12 months. The final result will be two versions of the film – The original Roadshow and the General Release, both with Overture, Intermission, Entr'acte and Exit Music. 70mm frame supplied by Schauburg Kino, Karlsruhe, Germany

The most important would be the theatrical event projected fully restored in 70mm or Digital Cinema in 2K or 4K. The running time would be approximately 172 minutes, replicating the visual and aural splendor of "The Alamo" as it originally premiered in San Antonio on October 24, 1960, albeit in the General Release cut of the film. While the General Release cut would be available for DVD and Blu-ray, the Roadshow version of the film is intended solely for the DVD and Blu-ray home video audience.

The restoration via all new Eastman film materials would guarantee that the film would survive in perpetuity.
Once completed, MGM would make a restored digital cinema element or 70mm print available for special charity screenings. The print, provided in the names of major donors, with all proceeds going toward the charities involved, would include end credits containing the names of major donors, both corporate and private, which would be seen on screen and later on home video and other uses of the work, linked forever with John Wayne's "The Alamo".

Currently, there is no way to create a 70mm print of this film. The extant production elements are a fading 35mm interpositive and a dupe negative derived from that source – neither representing the heroic work that went into this film by John Wayne and his co-creators.

One of the most important ways people know of the extraordinary gift of freedom given to Texas and our nation by those who defended The Alamo is by virtue of this film. Although an imperfect representation historically, John Wayne's work brilliantly portrays that larger than life tale, capturing the hearts and creating lasting memories for all who experience this great film. We are attempting to pull this important film back from the very brink of extinction and preserve it for generations to come.

We are hopeful that once we are officially in step with the appropriate charitable organization and are able to accept contributions, that support can be found to save Mr. Wayne's epic.

Our goal is to premiere a fully restored 70mm print of the film to play in San Antonio, Dallas and other major cities on or about March 6, 2010 to benefit the continued preservation and memory of The Alamo.
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Re: The Reconstruction and Restoration of THE ALAMO

Postby Fargo Fenwyck on Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:46 pm

I guess I'm confused. Does this mean a director's cut for DVD or just special theatre showings around the country in certain movie houses that about 80% of us have a problem getting to?
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